'Setting The Standard' Project Moves Forward

[calscot 0]

The fact that the club chose the hide behind UEFA and pass the buck for banning the song really irritates me and seems typical of how the club has chosen to communicate with the fans for many years.

 

I don't really think that's fair, the club have been communicating to the support to try stop the sectarianism since Souness arrived, but the support haven't listened at all. It's no wonder they want to use a higher power as an excuse to bring it down a level.

 

Until you bring in rules, people (and capitalist companies), do what they like without caring about the consequences of their actions to anyone else.

 

Rules are what make society work and funnily enough they make football work too. What would the game be like with no rules? It wouldn't be a game at all.

 

We even need new rules all the time - should McGeady be punished for breaking the rules or should he be allowed to fall over whenever he likes - after all, where is the harm in just falling over?

 

Basically you need rules and punishment just to get people to behave. Sad but true.

[Big Spliff 0]

That's just it though. I see the inference but I do not see the fact. It is most definitely not specific, unless someone can show me where. Nothing posted here or elsewhere makes the specific connection between the UEFA sanction and The Billy Boys song. UEFA says "sectarian". The club says we know not what. Those attending the meeting with the club say that the club specified TBB. But where is the direct, categoric statement that UEFA ever specifically banned or even referred to TBB song?

 

As far as I can see, it was the club alone that made the connection between UEFA's "sectarian" and this one particular song ........ and then alluded to a specific UEFA directive on TBB that was never actually made. The allusion became reality when those attending the meeting returned to report the club's directive as back-to-back with that of UEFA.

 

Now the club may well have thought the connection was entirely valid and justifiable and I'm not saying they weren't entitled to do so. But it remains a fact, in my eyes at least, that UEFA did NOT ban TBB song as has been widely assumed and reported.

 

The fact that the club chose the hide behind UEFA and pass the buck for banning the song really irritates me and seems typical of how the club has chosen to communicate with the fans for many years.

 

MF, I totally know what you mean but given that (in frankie's timeline post, see the 2nd link http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=512/newsid=413514.html ), it says this - direct from UEFA.

 

Social problem

In examining the alleged discriminatory chants, the Control & Disciplinary Body admitted that the nature of the song concerned – “Billy Boys” - related to a social problem in Scotland. The body also believed that the disciplinary decision in this case had to be taken in the context of Scotland’s social and historical background.

 

Studied evidence

After studying the evidence at hand as well as the statement of Rangers FC, the Control & Disciplinary Body conceded that supporters have been singing the song "Billy Boys" for years during national and international matches without either the Scottish football or governmental authorities being able to intervene. The result is that this song is now somehow tolerated.

 

 

Now, they found us NG as a result of social context etc. but the song was specifically on their radar. It's appealed and the reverse the decision, and now we get this (from RFC as an output from the supporters meeting);

 

UEFA have issued the Club with certain directives in order to combat sectarianism more efficiently. Firstly the Club has been ‘ordered to announce measurable targets in order to reduce sectarian behaviour amongst its supporters’. Secondly ‘to control their anti-sectarian activities by producing comprehensive statistics that are communicated to the public’.

Finally ‘to make a public address announcement at every official fixture, be it international or domestic, stating that any sectarian chanting and any form of ‘Billy Boys’ songs is strictly prohibited.’ in the Assembly link http://www.rangersassembly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=41

 

It is easy to see how this could have happened at the behest of UEFA, the link is obvious. However I understand the question mark over how this final specific BB sanction came to be put like that.

 

Only someone who saw the letter from UEFA and saw the final instruction written into it could clear this up.

[Frankie 8,186]

Nothing posted here or elsewhere makes the specific connection between the UEFA sanction and The Billy Boys song. UEFA says "sectarian". The club says we know not what. Those attending the meeting with the club say that the club specified TBB. But where is the direct, categoric statement that UEFA ever specifically banned or even referred to TBB song?

 

Did you read the links I provided?

 

When UEFA cleared us they specifically referred to the following:

 

"In examining the alleged discriminatory chants, the Control & Disciplinary Body admitted that the nature of the song concerned ââ?¬â?? ââ?¬Å?Billy Boysââ?¬Â - related to a social problem in Scotland."

 

As such, when they appealed that decision and found us guilty, of course that was the song they were going to ban as it was the focus of the disciplinary action.

 

"The directives themselves will be communicated to Rangers along with the full written grounds for the disciplinary decision."

 

This suggests UEFA then sent directives to the club so I really cannot see where the conspiracy that BB isn't banned comes from. Sure it isn't worded exactly how we'd like but it seems plain enough to me especially when viewed along with the other circumstantial evidence posted.

 

Of course whether the club should have done more is a different argument.

[maineflyer 0]

Did you read the links I provided?

 

When UEFA cleared us they specifically referred to the following:

 

"In examining the alleged discriminatory chants, the Control & Disciplinary Body admitted that the nature of the song concerned ââ?¬â?? ââ?¬Å?Billy Boysââ?¬Â - related to a social problem in Scotland."

 

As such, when they appealed that decision and found us guilty, of course that was the song they were going to ban as it was the focus of the disciplinary action.

 

"The directives themselves will be communicated to Rangers along with the full written grounds for the disciplinary decision."

 

This suggests UEFA then sent directives to the club so I really cannot see where the conspiracy that BB isn't banned comes from. Sure it isn't worded exactly how we'd like but it seems plain enough to me especially when viewed along with the other circumstantial evidence posted.

 

Of course whether the club should have done more is a different argument.

 

Frankie,

 

Of course I read the links and I very much appreciate what is suggested. However, I'd like to examine this beyond the level of suggestion and at no time do UEFA state in any of THEIR directives that the Billy Boys song is to be banned as a result of a UEFA decision. Not once, even though they have had at least two opportunities to do so. Why not? Why only skirt around the subject unless they wanted to leave the door open for someone else to take that decision?

 

It is plain that the only decision to ban this specific song came from the club and, while the club may very well have chosen to conclude this was UEFA's wish, this does NOT justify the club claiming via its surrogates that UEFA have banned the song.

 

It is equally clear that the club wished to attribute the banning to UEFA in order to distance itself from the decision and to lend a definitive credibility that the club itself could not provide.

 

Now I don't particularly have a problem if that is the outcome the club wished to achieve and I'm not going to war to re-instate the song, but I'm not going to put two and two together to come up with five. All I've ever argued is that UEFA did not ban this song. No evidence has ever been produced that shows they did and, if it existed, it would surely have been easier for the club to parade it for all to see. If the club wanted to ban the Billy Boys then the club should not have hidden behind the apron of UEFA to do so. In fact, in contrast to the club's charade, UEFA even indicated that this was something that lay beyond it's particular gift.

 

In the final analysis, this is about honesty and the unwillingness of those running the club to deal with the ordinary supporter in and open and frank manner. Those who attended the meeting may well have been used to convey the club's subterfuge and in turn either passed on what they believed to be an honest expression from UEFA, or they knowingly colluded with the club. I don't know which and I hope it was the former. What disappoints greatly is that in two years of asking this question, those who returned from that meeting never chose to seek full corroboration or to question the absence of it.

 

The facts as I can see them are that....

 

1. The Billy Boys song was banned by the club and not by UEFA.

2. The club deliberately asked fans to believe that they were acting at the specific and direct instructions of UEFA.

3. Almost certainly, elements of some supporters organisations colluded with the club in this respect, either knowingly or by neglect.

4. This was an act of gross dishonesty that has never been properly judged.

[Zappa 0]

I think you're making a very good case MF & indeed, if UEFA didn't actually ban that specific song, but rather, charged the club with the responsibility, then it's very clear that we've been mislead & that TBB is actually not a banned song other than inside Ibrox.

[Big Spliff 0]

Very well argued MF. Only one issue I have is that is NOT "plain to see" that RFC chose to ban TBB, and not UEFA. It is plausible, but not clear. As is the counter-arguement that it is perfectly plausible that UEFA did ban it.

 

I suspect you want to find out for sure, which I think is fair enough.

[Zappa 0]

There's one thing that you don't seem to have taken into consideration MF, & that is - What football club would claim that UEFA did something (specifically in terms of the banning of a song, TBB in this case) if UEFA did no such thing? Surely it would be idiotic to make such claims about UEFA sanctions if they weren't true, simply because it would be pretty easy to be found out, but more importantly, that UEFA would not look upon that decision by the club in a good light. The last thing UEFA need is clubs spreading misinformation regarding sanctions, fines or whatever.

 

You need to consider this from all possible perspectives before speculating.

[Norris Cole 0]

There's one thing that you don't seem to have taken into consideration MF, & that is - What football club would claim that UEFA did something (specifically in terms of the banning of a song, TBB in this case) if UEFA did no such thing? Surely it would be idiotic to make such claims about UEFA sanctions if they weren't true

 

The fact that no UEFA letter was produced by Rangers after the "ban", only talked about, speaks volumes IMO. Surely if any such letter was handed to Rangers, the club would have waved it about and said "Here you go, there's nothing we can do". It would have made Murray's plea to the fans a hell of a lot easier for a start.

[Zappa 0]

The fact that no UEFA letter was produced by Rangers after the "ban", only talked about, speaks volumes IMO. Surely if any such letter was handed to Rangers, the club would have waved it about and said "Here you go, there's nothing we can do". It would have made Murray's plea to the fans a hell of a lot easier for a start.

I hear you & you're saying exactly what most fans unsure about this have been saying, but not making the UEFA sanction documents public doesn't make them non-existent. I'm very tempted to stick with a feeling I have that there's no way on this earth the club would say TBB was specifically banned by UEFA if it was not specifically banned by them. It either was or it wasn't.

[maineflyer 0]

There's one thing that you don't seem to have taken into consideration MF, & that is - What football club would claim that UEFA did something (specifically in terms of the banning of a song, TBB in this case) if UEFA did no such thing? Surely it would be idiotic to make such claims about UEFA sanctions if they weren't true, simply because it would be pretty easy to be found out, but more importantly, that UEFA would not look upon that decision by the club in a good light. The last thing UEFA need is clubs spreading misinformation regarding sanctions, fines or whatever.

 

You need to consider this from all possible perspectives before speculating.

 

Shroomz,

 

The one very clever aspect of this is that the club did not claim UEFA banned the song. They got a group of fans' representatives to do this for them. The club was extremely careful to act at arms length at all times but the effect was clear - to get the wider support to believe that UEFA had banned the song without the club actually having to make a direct claim that could not be supported under investigation.

 

Even more cunningly, this gave the police and governmental bodies in Scotland a reasonable platform from which to attack the club on the basis of a "known" sectarian practice. Thus further consolidating the club's aims while again placing the club in the background.

 

We, my friends, have been had. And because of our loyalty to the club, the only way to expose this nonsense would be for us to risk damaging the club in the process, something they rightly calculated we would never do.