'Setting The Standard' Project Moves Forward

[Big Spliff 0]

It's not really a matter of debate Frankie.

 

1. The UEFA directive did not instruct the club to ban TBB - that is a simple matter of fact.

 

 

MF

 

I admire your tenacity (and Frankie's in return) and I see and sympathise with your points completely. However you argument is flawed in one crucial respect;

 

You are stating 'as fact' that UEFA didn't ban the Billy Boys. With respect, you don't know if it is "fundamentally untrue" (i.e. false, I presume you mean) or not. And on that basis you cannot simply state it as fact.

 

You don't know.

 

And neither does anyone else on this thread.

[maineflyer 0]

MF

 

I admire your tenacity (and Frankie's in return) and I see and sympathise with your points completely. However you argument is flawed in one crucial respect;

 

You are stating 'as fact' that UEFA didn't ban the Billy Boys. With respect, you don't know if it is "fundamentally untrue" (i.e. false, I presume you mean) or not. And on that basis you cannot simply state it as fact.

 

You don't know.

 

And neither does anyone else on this thread.

 

Spliff,

What I've said and what is absolutely indisputable is that the statements made public by UEFA on their website definitely did NOT ban TBB. That much is clear. If UEFA made any other statements or directives then I don't know about them and they did not make them public. Since UEFA's own rules mean they must publish their disciplinary decisions, I think it's conclusive that they didn't ban TBB. However, if you prefer, I'm prepared to put it another way ......... it is a fact that there is no evidence that UEFA banned TBB.

 

However, that said, I'm in despair at having to repeat the same thing again and again and, since I can't seem to resist the challenge each time I'm wound up, I think I need to capitulate and take an entirely new stance on this matter.

 

Therefore, from now on I'm a complete convert to the idea that UEFA actually did specifically ban TBB and I'm convinced the evidence must be there if only I had the wit to see it. The club were only complying with UEFA's direct instruction to them and took reasonable action by advising the entire Rangers support that TBB had been banned by UEFA and the club would suffer outrageous penalties if this wasn't complied with. The Assembly only reported the actions already undertaken by the club.

 

The club always communicates openly, directly and with complete honesty. I have undying faith that he club has never spun the facts in order to create a convenient perspective on the truth. I'm a born again Murrayite and I hope he returns to the boardroom soon.

 

yours in abject defeat and acute repetitive stress syndrome,

Maineflyer;)

Edited September 8, 2009 by maineflyer

[pete 2,499]

I am sorry to but in on this but was it not funny that UEFA done a compete 180 degree turn in such a short time changing a decision they made themselves. Anyone think it is possible that David Murray saw this as an opportunity to rid the club of what he considered a sectarian song and asked UEFA himself for the directive. just a thought and I love a good conspiracy theory.

[Big Spliff 0]

Therefore, from now on I'm a complete convert to the idea that UEFA actually did specifically ban TBB and I'm convinced the evidence must be there if only I had the wit to see it. The club were only complying with UEFA's direct instruction to them and took reasonable action by advising the entire Rangers support that TBB had been banned by UEFA and the club would suffer outrageous penalties if this wasn't complied with. The Assembly only reported the actions already undertaken by the club.

 

 

UEFA banned the Billy Boys? Prove it.

 

 

 

FWIW, in light of your various posts in this thread, I agree there is no totally conclusive evidence that UEFA banned TBB so fair play to you.

[Frankie 8,182]

Here we go again.......... I'm sure you're just winding me up.

 

You keep quoting links and tying them together but you never respond to the point at hand. I'm asking you one simple question here - show me one UEFA directive that bans TBB. If you can't them just say so instead of heading off at some tangent. Here's another I keep asking but you won't answer - show me one instruction by the club to the support that bans TBB. Similarly, if you can't them just say so.

 

 

I've not got time to go through everything again so I'll concentrate on this as it is the core part of what we're talking about here IMO.

 

Here is what appeared on the Assembly and club website at the time - as well as other media.

 

"This meeting coincidently coincided with UEFAââ?¬â?¢s written grounds for the decision rendered by the Appeal Body in relation to Rangers two Champions League matches against Villarreal. UEFA have issued the Club with certain directives in order to combat sectarianism more efficiently. Firstly the Club has been ââ?¬Ë?ordered to announce measurable targets in order to reduce sectarian behaviour amongst its supportersââ?¬â?¢. Secondly ââ?¬Ë?to control their anti-sectarian activities by producing comprehensive statistics that are communicated to the publicââ?¬â?¢.

Finally ââ?¬Ë?to make a public address announcement at every official fixture, be it international or domestic, stating that any sectarian chanting and any form of ââ?¬Ë?Billy Boysââ?¬â?¢ songs is strictly prohibited.ââ?¬â?¢

 

That contains the UEFA directive that banned TBB. That also shows the club had to mention the song by name at every fixture (which I recall from the time did happen).

 

Despite reservations about the whole issue, I believe these directives to be genuine and from UEFA - despite them not being published on their site in full. You say every directive ever made by them is published in full but I don't think that is true - although I'd be happy to be proved wrong as if it were, it would lend much weight to your claims that such a TBB ban directive doesn't exist.

 

Now, these directives may well not be genuine. If you think they're not, then at least come out and say so instead of saying this is merely a communication issue between the club and support when what you clearly mean is the club lied to the support and have wrongly blamed an innocent organisation for something they wanted to enforce.

 

That way perhaps we can both agree to disagree!

[Frankie 8,182]

 

FWIW, in light of your various posts in this thread, I agree there is no totally conclusive evidence that UEFA banned TBB so fair play to you.

 

Not trying to be obtuse as I appreciate MF may have answered already for you but why do you think UEFA specifically mentioned TBB to begin with, then removed it but fined us for sectarian chanting, then sat back and allowed Rangers to blame them for a ban they didn't make?

 

I assume you also think the club made up the directives themselves and lied to the support at large therein?

 

I honestly don't think such a conspiracy makes much sense given the (circumstantial I agree) evidence which is available. We were punished for singing TBB and we'd be punished more strongly if we didn't stop it. As such, of course both UEFA and RFC would want it banned. Ergo, there would surely be no need for some sort of underhand dealing behind the scenes?

Edited September 8, 2009 by Frankie

[maineflyer 0]

I am sorry to but in on this but was it not funny that UEFA done a compete 180 degree turn in such a short time changing a decision they made themselves. Anyone think it is possible that David Murray saw this as an opportunity to rid the club of what he considered a sectarian song and asked UEFA himself for the directive. just a thought and I love a good conspiracy theory.

 

Aaaaaaaaarrrgghhhhh

[maineflyer 0]

UEFA banned the Billy Boys? Prove it.

 

 

 

FWIW, in light of your various posts in this thread, I agree there is no totally conclusive evidence that UEFA banned TBB so fair play to you.

 

Yippee:spl:

[Big Spliff 0]

Not trying to be obtuse as I appreciate MF may have answered already for you but why do you think UEFA specifically mentioned TBB to begin with, then removed it but fined us for sectarian chanting, then sat back and allowed Rangers to blame them for a ban they didn't make?

 

I assume you also think the club made up the directives themselves and lied to the support at large therein?

 

I honestly don't think such a conspiracy makes much sense given the (circumstantial I agree) evidence which is available. We were punished for singing TBB and we'd be punished more strongly if we didn't stop it. As such, of course both UEFA and RFC would want it banned. Ergo, there would surely be no need for some sort of underhand dealing behind the scenes?

 

Nope

 

I am just agreeing with MF that there is no conclusive proof, for the reasons we've discussed. I can see perfectly the logic & circumstantial evidence that says UEFA did ban TBB but I can also see the gap in the paper-trail which says it can't be conclusively proved. What happened in that gap I've no idea and I'm not inclined to go there

[maineflyer 0]

That contains the UEFA directive that banned TBB.

 

No it doesn't. It contains a statement by the Assembly saying that UEFA banned TBB. You gotta stop adding two and two and coming up with five.