Super_Ally 0 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Shroomz, The one very clever aspect of this is that the club did not claim UEFA banned the song. They got a group of fans' representatives to do this for them. The club was extremely careful to act at arms length at all times but the effect was clear - to get the wider support to believe that UEFA had banned the song without the club actually having to make a direct claim that could not be supported under investigation. Even more cunningly, this gave the police and governmental bodies in Scotland a reasonable platform from which to attack the club on the basis of a "known" sectarian practice. Thus further consolidating the club's aims while again placing the club in the background. We, my friends, have been had. And because of our loyalty to the club, the only way to expose this nonsense would be for us to risk damaging the club in the process, something they rightly calculated we would never do. I'm sceptical as I don't really buy into conspiracy theories. No convinced. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineflyer 0 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Very well argued MF. Only one issue I have is that is NOT "plain to see" that RFC chose to ban TBB, and not UEFA. It is plausible, but not clear. As is the counter-arguement that it is perfectly plausible that UEFA did ban it. I suspect you want to find out for sure, which I think is fair enough. That's a valid perspective. So try applying it from another direction..... There is a clear belief amongst the support that the song was banned by UEFA, that much is beyond debate. Yet there is no evidence that this is the case, despite all the time that has passed and all the requests for clear corroboration. Why then is it OK for supporters representatives to have stated that it was "plain to see" that the song had been banned by UEFA. By the nature of the beast, nothing is plain ..... or clear ..... or obvious in this matter. But in the absence of evidence to back up the established wisdom, I think it is entirely acceptable for me to challenge that position. If I am wrong then let my detractors bring on the evidence - but what I won't be accepting is the same old string of suggestions, inferences and convenient conclusions. If it is indeed plausible that UEFA did ban the song, then show me the beef. Otherwise, we all need to look elsewhere for the truth. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineflyer 0 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I'm sceptical as I don't really buy into conspiracy theories. No convinced. Fair enough. What are you convinced of in this matter ... and why? 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Ally 0 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Fair enough. What are you convinced of in this matter ... and why? Not very much to be honest. Murky waters. You're well within you rights to hold your view and may very well be right. I have nothing to prove my assertion either way. My stand is just based upon my own approach to things I guess. I don't often buy into conspiracy theories. I don't have a strong view on this. Just an assumption based on a dearth of facts. Hopefully, we will one day find out the full truth, but I don't see it. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa 0 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Shroomz, The one very clever aspect of this is that the club did not claim UEFA banned the song. They got a group of fans' representatives to do this for them. The club was extremely careful to act at arms length at all times but the effect was clear - to get the wider support to believe that UEFA had banned the song without the club actually having to make a direct claim that could not be supported under investigation. Even more cunningly, this gave the police and governmental bodies in Scotland a reasonable platform from which to attack the club on the basis of a "known" sectarian practice. Thus further consolidating the club's aims while again placing the club in the background. We, my friends, have been had. And because of our loyalty to the club, the only way to expose this nonsense would be for us to risk damaging the club in the process, something they rightly calculated we would never do. The important factor here though MF, is not whether or not TBB was banned by UEFA or by the club itself, but whether or not the club were in a position to allow us to continue singing it. Might seem like nothing to some people, but at the end of the day, that's what it probably came down to. After what happened with UEFA the club didn't have a leg to stand on because any singing of the song in any format would have been reported to the SFA & UEFA. The club couldn't stand by and allow the support to be dragged through the mud while bringing the club down with them. What were they supposed to do exactly? They told the support to stop singing the song for the good of the club as a whole. Yes, you have a point that we've been had, but we're had constantly, in almost everything we do, so......??. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineflyer 0 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 The important factor here though MF, is not whether or not TBB was banned by UEFA or by the club itself, but whether or not the club were in a position to allow us to continue singing it. Might seem like nothing to some people, but at the end of the day, that's what it probably came down to. After what happened with UEFA the club didn't have a leg to stand on because any singing of the song in any format would have been reported to the SFA & UEFA. The club couldn't stand by and allow the support to be dragged through the mud while bringing the club down with them. What were they supposed to do exactly? They told the support to stop singing the song for the good of the club as a whole. Yes, you have a point that we've been had, but we're had constantly, in almost everything we do, so......??. As I've said already, I've no problem with the club taking that stance for whatever reason or principle they felt was involved. I might not agree with it but the club is perfectly entitled to hold a view and act upon it. If the club didn't feel it could allow us to continue singing TBB then all it needed to do was say so and explain why. It's not difficult or complicated. My issue is that the club did not deal with the support in an open and honest manner. Also, that those who propose to "represent" the various factions in that support could not do so either. Worse than that, when subsequently questioned on the matter, the reaction has been one of intentional cover-up or willful negligence...... sometimes known as lies. All of which shows a distinct lack of respect and a belief that the end alone justifies the means. For me, this is an ugly and unacceptable expediency. It infects and underpins the entire relationship between club and supporter and, in my own opinion, has eroded the proud principles that Rangers once stood for. It is what I have never been able to accept about David Murray and why I have long been keen to see him go. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineflyer 0 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Not very much to be honest. Murky waters. You're well within you rights to hold your view and may very well be right. I have nothing to prove my assertion either way. My stand is just based upon my own approach to things I guess. I don't often buy into conspiracy theories. I don't have a strong view on this. Just an assumption based on a dearth of facts. Hopefully, we will one day find out the full truth, but I don't see it. One thing is for sure. If we don't pursue that truth there is absolutely no hope of ever finding it. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannochsidebear 2,321 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Interesting post TB. What would you say the bears actually got in return for abandoning The Billy Boys? Are you sure this was the deal because I always understood the club announced that TBB had been banned by UEFA and that they (Murray) had no option but to ask the supporters not to sing it. I didn't know the club had hung out a quid pro quo relating to addressing the anti-Rangers media - and to be frank, I've yet to see anyone at Rangers ever come out and actually take on the media bias against Rangers. In which case it wasn't really much of a deal at all. The so-called UEFA position on The Billy Boys has never been clearly and unambiguously confirmed and there remain deep suspicions that the club deliberately manipulated the situation (invented the UEFA banning) for the sole purpose of meeting Murray's personal aspiration to kill off what he perceived as a sectarian anthem. I'd love to know the truth of it all but that's a commodity in scarce supply these last few years. I felt the role of the RST via it's FF mouthpiece was particularly regretable in pushing the club's message rather than seeking proper confirmation before falling so obediently in line ...... in return for what look like empty promises. You have got to remember that this came about a year after the UEFA stuff, and because the fans, despite the pleas from the club, continued to sing it in domestic away games in particular, and we were in danger of having sanctions being applied to the club by the SPL/SFA, due to the continued pressure being applied by the timmy mhedia. It was at this point that a meeting took place between the club and a small number of influential RSC chairmen at Ibrox, where the club appealed to the chairmen to see if there was any way they could use their influence to avoid the club being sanctioned further domestically. The meting of over 60 RSC's took place within a couple of weeks at the WRC, chaired by Billy Montgomery of the Nithsdale, and I was there taking minutes. There was no "deal" as you have implied, as the club had nothing to offer. It was a meeting of Rangers supporters, concerned that if TBB did not stop, we would start to affect our chances of success domestically with points deductions etc being threatened by the SPL/SFA. What was promised was that the RSC's wouldn't be doing it alone, and that the club would pay for the leaflet campaign that was produced for the next week's game, and come out in full support of the initiative of "self-policing" which was agreed as the way forward, and which proved successful. I can see that the thread has moved onwards somewhat since you replied to my earlier post, but I wanted to take the time to explain what happened in 2007 in a little more detail, as I think you have picked it up wrong. I still have the minutes somewhere from the meeting. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineflyer 0 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 You have got to remember that this came about a year after the UEFA stuff, and because the fans, despite the pleas from the club, continued to sing it in domestic away games in particular, and we were in danger of having sanctions being applied to the club by the SPL/SFA, due to the continued pressure being applied by the timmy mhedia. It was at this point that a meeting took place between the club and a small number of influential RSC chairmen at Ibrox, where the club appealed to the chairmen to see if there was any way they could use their influence to avoid the club being sanctioned further domestically. The meting of over 60 RSC's took place within a couple of weeks at the WRC, chaired by Billy Montgomery of the Nithsdale, and I was there taking minutes. There was no "deal" as you have implied, as the club had nothing to offer. It was a meeting of Rangers supporters, concerned that if TBB did not stop, we would start to affect our chances of success domestically with points deductions etc being threatened by the SPL/SFA. What was promised was that the RSC's wouldn't be doing it alone, and that the club would pay for the leaflet campaign that was produced for the next week's game, and come out in full support of the initiative of "self-policing" which was agreed as the way forward, and which proved successful. I can see that the thread has moved onwards somewhat since you replied to my earlier post, but I wanted to take the time to explain what happened in 2007 in a little more detail, as I think you have picked it up wrong. I still have the minutes somewhere from the meeting. Sorry TB but none of that alters the fact that the club allowed everyone to understand that TBB had to be banned because of specific directives from UEFA. Which simply wasn't true. UEFA even went into print stating that it was a matter for the Scottish authorities to deal with. If the club also mobilised supporters groups to help eradicate the song on the basis of SPL/SFA directives then show me those directives as well. Were SPL/SFA policies on the specific matter of TBB song presented by the club at the meeting you mention? If so, what were they and where can we see copies? As I've said above, I have no difficulty understanding why the club might have wished to pursue the outcome it did. But why base that pursuit on the policies of other organisations that I'm finding it hard to see ever actually existed. I think we can see that UEFA never actually asked the club to ban TBB and never threatened any sanctions based upon this particular song. I could be wrong but I don't recall the SPL or SFA ever making threats that if Rangers fans sang TBB they would deduct points or fine the club. If they did then I'm wrong and I'll accept it. There has been enough double-speak about this matter from the press and broadcast media, from elements within government and from our disaffected Oirish community, Rangers didn't have to be part of that too. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Would anyone be averse to me spending the time when I come back later in thinning this thread out a bit ? I think the UEFA/RFC/TBB is a great topic but it seems to have taken over this thread which dilutes the effect of the thread topic. That OK folks ? 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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