SDS Survey: No Issues? No Chance!

[Frankie 8,150]

Ok, so you support singing a song which damages the reputation and finances of the club, which threatens our future participation in European football and you're quite happy to put your own anti-catholic agenda before the well-being of Rangers FC.

That's all we need to know.

 

I don't think it's fair to say that those who sing this song are anti-catholic.

 

Yes the song has been proscribed (choose between UEFA, Police Scotland or RFC) but I think any of these bodies would find it difficult to prove sectarianism was the motive of all singers.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I don't think it's fair to say that those who sing this song are anti-catholic.

 

Yes the song has been proscribed (choose between UEFA, Police Scotland or RFC) but I think any of these bodies would find it difficult to prove sectarianism was the motive of all singers.

 

Really? Replace f****n with n**g*r in the song and sectarianism with racism in your post and then read that back to me, just to see how it sounds. (I'm not accusing you of anything, by the way - just pointing out the weakness in your contention)

 

Quite apart from that, the motives of those who sing it are pretty much irrelevant (although how someone can admit it is seen to be anti-catholic, yet continue to sing it but claim not be anti-catholic is a step too far for my addled mind). The fact is that singing it only harms the club and that is unacceptable, regardless of the motivation.

[Frankie 8,150]

Really? Replace f****n with n**g*r in the song and sectarianism with racism in your post and then read that back to me, just to see how it sounds. (I'm not accusing you of anything, by the way - just pointing out the weakness in your contention)

 

Quite apart from that, the motives of those who sing it are pretty much irrelevant (although how someone can admit it is seen to be anti-catholic, yet continue to sing it but claim not be anti-catholic is a step too far for my addled mind). The fact is that singing it only harms the club and that is unacceptable, regardless of the motivation.

 

I don't disagree with the self-harm point you're making but I still don't think it's fair to suggest that if, say, 500 people are singing TBB then all of these people are bigots.

 

For example, the n word is pretty much known by everyone and accepted to be racist no matter the context. However, I'd say despite the media campaign of the noughties to similarly outlaw the f word, I'd suggest not everyone knows its background and some will be ignorant about its usage.

 

With that in mind, I'd argue there is always a context to be applied in such situations. Indeed, this is why the Lord Advocate has consistently refused to provide a list of proscribed songs/chants/words because they know how difficult it is to prosecute people with catch-all phrases.

 

If this issue was as simple as you suggest then we'd have hundreds of people lifted weekly, clubs punished regularly and dozens of songs banned. Sectarianism would have ended years ago. Instead we have dribs and drabs of people prosecuted, no club punishments and confusion over banned terms/songs.

 

Now, that's perhaps as big a problem as anything else but I think we have to be vary careful about labelling people unfairly. For example, if I were to sing TBB tomorrow, would I be singing about catholics or violent republicans when using the f word?

 

The Roll of Honour issue is another example of this. Football fans can be arrested for singing it (rightly or wrongly) but no-one prosecuted for releasing a single into the national charts. Unfortunately, motivation and context are entirely relevant.

[Bluedell 5,329]

Really? Replace f****n with n**g*r in the song and sectarianism with racism in your post and then read that back to me, just to see how it sounds. (I'm not accusing you of anything, by the way - just pointing out the weakness in your contention)

 

What a disgraceful analogy, trying to equate political views with the colour of someone's skin.

 

Quite apart from that, the motives of those who sing it are pretty much irrelevant (although how someone can admit it is seen to be anti-catholic, yet continue to sing it but claim not be anti-catholic is a step too far for my addled mind).

 

Many believe that The Flower of Scotland is anti-English. Would you stop singing it because of their views?

[The Real PapaBear 0]

What a disgraceful analogy, trying to equate political views with the colour of someone's skin.

 

what a shamefully disingenous attempt to hide reality. Are you seriously saying that anyone using f*****n in a "political" context? What a crock of shite! This nonsense about fe****ns being used in the "original" context has only emerged in the past few years and only then because some people needed some "political" justification for spouting their "religious" bigotry.

 

Many believe that The Flower of Scotland is anti-English. Would you stop singing it because of their views?

 

Many people are ignorant and stupid. Should I live my life based on their ignorance and stupidity?

 

Much as I find the tune to be a woeful dirge and certainly don't regard it as my national anthem, there is not a single anti-English word or anti-English sentiment contained within it. Accusations of it being anti-English as only ever levelled by cringing jocks transferring their own inadequacies and hang ups into this song.

[Darthter 542]

Many believe that The Flower of Scotland is anti-English. Would you stop singing it because of their views?

 

Flower of Scotland is most definitely NOT anti-English.....it is however predominantly about English oppression of the Scottish people & how Scotland will rise above it "and be that nation again".

 

God Save the Queen on the other hand, does contain very clear Anti-Scottish sentiment.....

[Scott7 5,156]

Only "rebellious" Scots, not ordinary loyal ones.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I don't disagree with the self-harm point you're making but I still don't think it's fair to suggest that if, say, 500 people are singing TBB then all of these people are bigots.

For example, the n word is pretty much known by everyone and accepted to be racist no matter the context. However, I'd say despite the media campaign of the noughties to similarly outlaw the f word, I'd suggest not everyone knows its background and some will be ignorant about its usage.

 

Are you seriously trying to tell me that there is a Rangers fan alive who doesn't know or think that f*****n refers to Catholics? And please don't give me any nonsense about it meaning some obscure group of 19th century Irish American activists, who nobody had heard of until recently.

 

With that in mind, I'd argue there is always a context to be applied in such situations. Indeed, this is why the Lord Advocate has consistently refused to provide a list of proscribed songs/chants/words because they know how difficult it is to prosecute people with catch-all phrases.

 

'Context' applies if Professor Higgenbottom-Smythe is giving a lecture at Edinburgh University on the rise of 9th Century Irish nationalism. In this context the word F****n is pretty central to the day's events. When we are talking about football, context does not apply "in such situations", because there are no "such situations" - when you're wearing a Rangers scarf and talking about f******s, it's bigotry, pure and simple.

 

If this issue was as simple as you suggest then we'd have hundreds of people lifted weekly, clubs punished regularly and dozens of songs banned. Sectarianism would have ended years ago. Instead we have dribs and drabs of people prosecuted, no club punishments and confusion over banned terms/songs.

 

Sectarianism has no chance of ending as long as children are divided into separate schools at the age of 5 and grow up with a mentality of division. The promotion and fostering of sectarianism has little or nothing to do with us or Rangers FC. That aside, the issue is very, very simple: if you use derogatory, racist or discriminatory terms about any particular group, that's illegal and those songs are banned. There is no confusion. TBB =banned; The Sash / Derry's Walls = no problem.

 

Now, that's perhaps as big a problem as anything else but I think we have to be vary careful about labelling people unfairly. For example, if I were to sing TBB tomorrow, would I be singing about catholics or violent republicans when using the f word?

 

If you were to sing TBB tomorrow, you'd be singing about Catholics. You wouldn't be able to kid yourself on that it had any other meaning and you sure as hell wouldn't be kidding anyone else on either.

 

 

The Roll of Honour issue is another example of this. Football fans can be arrested for singing it (rightly or wrongly) but no-one prosecuted for releasing a single into the national charts. Unfortunately, motivation and context are entirely relevant.

 

You're talking about two legal jurisdictions here, so in that respect, context is relevant. In Scotland, it's a no-no. In rUK, you can sing about terrorists all you want, no problem. (unless of course, it's Islamic "terrorists", when a whole new set of laws and rules apply. Some of them even on the statute books.) But again, the motivation is of no relevance whatsoever. Bob Geldof and the Dalai Lama could sing it in a duet atop the steeple of Greyfriars Kirk and they'd still get lifted for doing so.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Only "rebellious" Scots, not ordinary loyal ones.

 

you mean, only upitty Jocks, not the ones who know their place?

[Scott7 5,156]

No. Modern Scots wha aren'ae feart o' the English and don't waste time greetin' about puir auld Scotland.