Coventry and QPR opted not to take a knee

[craig 5,199]

21 hours ago, alexscottislegend said:

And talking of gestures, many corporations have embraced this anti-racism movement (Ben and Jerry for one). The CEO of JP Morgan took the knee with his staff. Yet his organisation were complicit in the sub-prime mortgages scandal when BAME customers were disproportionately affected and then foreclosed on them after the 2008 crisis. So that's the trouble with gesture politics.

What scandal ?  The 2008 crisis wasn't one of mortgages foreclosing - those sub-prime mortgages ALWAYS ran the risk of foreclosure.  BAME customers were disproportionately affected because they disproportionately live in lower income households.  That is nothing to do with JPMC or Jamie Dimon.  His organization was complicit in packaging sub-prime mortgages as A-rated products and selling them as high quality - but that had NOTHING to do with sub-prime mortgages themselves.

 

As I said, sub-prime mortgages, by their very definition, are at a higher risk of foreclosure than other mortgages.  Many of those BAME customers were already failing to make mortgage payments, and that is the reason they were foreclosed upon.  Nothing to do with discrimination.

[alexscottislegend 2,289]

37 minutes ago, craig said:

What scandal ?  The 2008 crisis wasn't one of mortgages foreclosing - those sub-prime mortgages ALWAYS ran the risk of foreclosure.  BAME customers were disproportionately affected because they disproportionately live in lower income households.  That is nothing to do with JPMC or Jamie Dimon.  His organization was complicit in packaging sub-prime mortgages as A-rated products and selling them as high quality - but that had NOTHING to do with sub-prime mortgages themselves.

 

As I said, sub-prime mortgages, by their very definition, are at a higher risk of foreclosure than other mortgages.  Many of those BAME customers were already failing to make mortgage payments, and that is the reason they were foreclosed upon.  Nothing to do with discrimination.

When people are disproportionately affected - as you yourself inferred- then that is the system discriminating is my point.

And that begs the question of why lower-income families (who are working after all) can't afford anything other than sub-prime products? And why blacks and Latinos form the bulk of that group. So don't see how you can say it is nothing to do with discrimination.

Edited December 8, 2020 by alexscottislegend
addition

[craig 5,199]

1 hour ago, alexscottislegend said:

When people are disproportionately affected - as you yourself inferred- then that is the system discriminating is my point.

And that begs the question of why lower-income families (who are working after all) can't afford anything other than sub-prime products? And why blacks and Latinos form the bulk of that group. So don't see how you can say it is nothing to do with discrimination.

I will say it is nothing to do with discrimination because you alleged that it was discrimination as a result of the sub-prime mortgages.  You said "sub-prime mortgages scandal where BAME were disproportionately affected".  That inferred that sub-prime mortgages caused their foreclosures - and nothing could be further from the truth.  Indeed, it could legitimately be argued that those sub-prime mortgages were the causal factor in the 2008 financial crisis, not the mortgage lender who provided mortgages on them.

 

You really should spend a little more time understanding this before casting accusations everywhere.

 

BAME families living in lower-income neighbourhoods and being discriminated against in that manner is a completely, completely different discussion topic than sub-prime mortgages.

 

You are trying to conflate two different issues because it fits your agenda to lob everything into "capitalism = bad" rhetoric.  And yet, strangely enough, it is the desire for people to have assets (a form of capitalism itself) that resulted in lower-income families being able to get on the housing ladder when they perhaps shouldn't have been based on income - and it was their inability to service that debt which caused the whole market to crash, aided and abetted by Wall Street types who saw opportunity to create financial products from such assets.

 

Had nobody missed mortgage payments then there would have been no foreclosures, and there actually would have been no market crash (at least not due to that issue) - so rather than being the victims, those same BAME lower income households you refer to were actually causal factors, and not merely victims.  Harsh though it sounds, they definitely contributed to the financial crisis of 2008.

 

Their income distribution vs other ethnic groups is a completely different discussion.

[Bill 13,717]

1 hour ago, craig said:

You really should spend a little more time understanding this before casting accusations everywhere.

I think ASIL takes the view that issues like this are merely excuses to flex his 20th century socialist dogma and of little real interest in themselves. 

 

Anyone who knows anything about the sub prime crash also knows it has bugger all to do with race.

[Gonzo79 15,152]

It's interesting to note that financial crashes, as well as global pandemics, are racist.  ?

 

When someone says BAME communities are adversely affected, does that take into account the economic differences between the Indians in the UK and Afro-Caribbeans or the Chinese and the West Africans?  Seems a bit simplistic to group them all together. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Gonzo79

[alexscottislegend 2,289]

11 minutes ago, Gonzo79 said:

It's interesting to note that financial crashes, as well as global pandemics, are racist.  ?

 

When someone says BAME communities are adversely affected, does that take into account the economic differences between the Indians in the UK and Afro-Caribbeans or the Chinese and the West Africans?  Seems a bit simplistic to group them all together. 

Come on! You know fine well what I meant.

[alexscottislegend 2,289]

31 minutes ago, Bill said:

I think ASIL takes the view that issues like this are merely excuses to flex his 20th century socialist dogma and of little real interest in themselves. 

 

Anyone who knows anything about the sub prime crash also knows it has bugger all to do with race.

He does but no more than you do to promote your dogma. I will admit though that the crash had more to do with class than race.

[alexscottislegend 2,289]

17 minutes ago, Gonzo79 said:

It's interesting to note that financial crashes, as well as global pandemics, are racist.  ?

 

When someone says BAME communities are adversely affected, does that take into account the economic differences between the Indians in the UK and Afro-Caribbeans or the Chinese and the West Africans?  Seems a bit simplistic to group them all together. 

Well now you are talking about class as opposed to race and that is a more accurate way to look at it. South Africa may not be racist now but it is definitely classist with a group of middle class blacks.

[alexscottislegend 2,289]

 it could legitimately be argued that those sub-prime mortgages were the causal factor in the 2008 financial crisis, 

 

Agreed.

[Gonzo79 15,152]

4 minutes ago, alexscottislegend said:

South Africa may not be racist now

I have visited South Africa three times and can assure you things referred to as racist in the UK would be considered nothing of the sort there.  And it's more like spaghetti junction than a one way street.