Murray hits out again...

[bmck 117]

surely even from a financial perspective doing something like this would be good business for rangers. investing in sheets for words etc may save the club in the long run from fines etc.

 

as an aside, it seems that the RCC's position on freemasonry isn't as rosy as I had thought. there's been some ambiguity over the years but the ancient precedent seems to be "Persons joining associations of the Masonic sect or any others of the same kind which plot against the Church and legitimate civil authorities contract ipso facto excommunication simply reserved to the Apostolic See.".

 

But the RCC's a lot more liberal on these things nowadays.

[Trailio 0]

No, the only one that is banned is The Billy Boys.....

 

Cammy F

 

I didn't realise sorry. I was under the assumption that we had to stamp out all songs with sectarian references.

 

My mistake.

 

Please excuse my ignorance but if this is the case then what is all the fuss about if we only have to stop singing one song.

[ascender 352]

I don't think it matters, all songs which make sectarian reference will end up being banned if UEFA get their way. Regardless of who complains about them, it doesn't matter, I think we've had it spelled out to us that we have to change now or face the consequences. That's why I think Murray should be fronting a new initiative and going on the offensive here as there's loads of issues about this and also some things he could be doing to paint the fans and the club in a positive light.

[calscot 0]

The sash has absolutely nothing to do with masonry, which is a secret society for members of all religions (and, indeed, non-religions).

 

Ok Plastic Orange Order Member for the pedantic, I was looking for a noun representing these people and that was the one I came up with. I assumed most would work out what I mean...

[calscot 0]

I've just reread a post and seen that "Orangemen" was the word I was lookin g for. I never said there's anything wrong with the song except that it's hypocritical to sing it while slagging off Celtic's Irish songs. It's also a pretty stupid song if you and you father are not in the OO.

 

And you won't see many red blooded males swooning over a sash and saying "Oh it's soooo beautiful..., the colours are soooo fine..., I want to sing about you all the time."

 

But in my opinion, most don't really know what their singing about at all. It's jsut a song to "get right up the Tims".

[craig 5,199]

surely even from a financial perspective doing something like this would be good business for rangers. investing in sheets for words etc may save the club in the long run from fines etc.

 

as an aside, it seems that the RCC's position on freemasonry isn't as rosy as I had thought. there's been some ambiguity over the years but the ancient precedent seems to be "Persons joining associations of the Masonic sect or any others of the same kind which plot against the Church and legitimate civil authorities contract ipso facto excommunication simply reserved to the Apostolic See.".

 

But the RCC's a lot more liberal on these things nowadays.

 

Your comment on the RCC Barry seems to lend support to what one of my friends went through - now admittedly he became a freemason a LONG time ago, probably 30+ years ago - so maybe I should have clarified that. I agree that it is more liberal these days.

 

Sadly, IMO, they are incorrect in their beliefs regarding freemasonry (at least.... I am in the blues and they couldn't be further from the truth in believing that they plot against the Church).

 

sory once more for digressing from the topic of the thread

[bmck 117]

Ok Plastic Orange Order Member for the pedantic, I was looking for a noun representing these people and that was the one I came up with. I assumed most would work out what I mean...

 

I dont think its an issue of pedantry - what we are discussing here is ignorance, and I think misrepresenting religious organisations just adds to the problem. It is only for the media, and some celtic supporters, that no difference between organisations like the freemasons and the orange order exists.

 

And I still dont agree with the idea that there is no fundamental difference between plastic orangemen and plastic paddies. Providing support for the orange order is not, and never can be, like supporting terrorists like the IRA. Of course, support for the UVF etc is the same, but I think the generalisations on the whole issue are part of the problem.

 

Unfortunately, too many people enact there being no difference between the UVF and the Orange Order, which, I suppose, is why things are in this state.

[bmck 117]

Sadly, IMO, they are incorrect in their beliefs regarding freemasonry (at least.... I am in the blues and they couldn't be further from the truth in believing that they plot against the Church).

 

I agree, the RCC couldn't be further from the truth on quite a lot of things, I think.

 

Perhaps historically there has been some issue between the masons and hte church regarding plots and what not, but certainly not nowadays, from what i know of the freemasons.

[nokiss 0]

For those who want to continue to sing about fucking the pope and being up to your knees in fenian blood, you can, just not at Ibrox. You can sing it on your RSC bus, you can sing it in the pubs, you can sing it in your house / garden, you can sing it anywhere you want, apart from Ibrox. So, the defence of 'freedom of speach' isn't an issue here.

 

This issue isn't going to go away - if we continue to sing these songs, Rangers Football Club will be punished and punished heavily. The issue of David Murray and the club's stance is now another issue completely.

 

UEFA have fined us and warned us about future behaviour. If we are found guilty again, we are going to suffer. No amount of posturing from us or the club is going to stop this punishment.

 

We really need to wake up and smell the coffee here.

 

Cammy

 

Yourself, Frankie and some of the other guys are well clued in to everything that is RANGERS. I enjoy reading your posts and have plenty of respect for your opinions on all matters, not just bigotry. Is that maybe where the problem lies Cammy. The gersnet family is tiny compared to the amount of fans that go to IBROX, not alot of fans have access to these opinions and possible solutions to the sectarian chanting problem and therefore are ignorant(in the nicest sense of the word)to the trouble these actions are going to bring RANGERS.

 

Educating the massive RANGERS family in this matter is obviously a MUST.

 

I'm NOT saying for a minute that every GERS fan is a bigot. That's obvious. I would imagine though, alot of fans at the games are singing the songs with 'fuck the pope' and 'fenian' in them, simply because they've been singing them that way for a very long time. I'm not making excuses for them, I'm merley stating a fact.

 

What can we do to get the message across that things have to change Cammy? A flyer on every seat at IBROX on game day detailing the exact situation in regards to fines and sanctions for singing songs with sectarian overtones. With offenders being severely punished.

 

Is this an option Cammy?

 

Cheers, nokiss(jimi)

[CammyF 6,869]

For those who want to continue to sing about fucking the pope and being up to your knees in fenian blood, you can, just not at Ibrox. You can sing it on your RSC bus, you can sing it in the pubs, you can sing it in your house / garden, you can sing it anywhere you want, apart from Ibrox. So, the defence of 'freedom of speach' isn't an issue here.

 

This issue isn't going to go away - if we continue to sing these songs, Rangers Football Club will be punished and punished heavily. The issue of David Murray and the club's stance is now another issue completely.

 

UEFA have fined us and warned us about future behaviour. If we are found guilty again, we are going to suffer. No amount of posturing from us or the club is going to stop this punishment.

 

We really need to wake up and smell the coffee here.

 

Cammy

 

Yourself, Frankie and some of the other guys are well clued in to everything that is RANGERS. I enjoy reading your posts and have plenty of respect for your opinions on all matters, not just bigotry. Is that maybe where the problem lies Cammy. The gersnet family is tiny compared to the amount of fans that go to IBROX, not alot of fans have access to these opinions and possible solutions to the sectarian chanting problem and therefore are ignorant(in the nicest sense of the word)to the trouble these actions are going to bring RANGERS.

 

Educating the massive RANGERS family in this matter is obviously a MUST.

 

I'm NOT saying for a minute that every GERS fan is a bigot. That's obvious. I would imagine though, alot of fans at the games are singing the songs with 'fuck the pope' and 'fenian' in them, simply because they've been singing them that way for a very long time. I'm not making excuses for them, I'm merley stating a fact.

 

What can we do to get the message across that things have to change Cammy? A flyer on every seat at IBROX on game day detailing the exact situation in regards to fines and sanctions for singing songs with sectarian overtones. With offenders being severely punished.

 

Is this an option Cammy?

 

Cheers, nokiss(jimi)

 

Yes, Rangers should be leafleting the fans and advising us what is OK to sing. I think there are obvious songs that have to go - fucking the pope and up to our knees - these are the obvious ones.

 

The ones that aren't so obvious like 'We Are Rangers' could benefit from word changes BUT songs like The Sash, Derrys Walls, Build My Gallows are NOT sectarian. That doesn't mean that we should be singing these long-term, but in relation to the UEFA directive, they are untouchable.

 

I know that both Ragners fanzines as well as the RST etc are actively trying to 'educate' fans into what is OK to sing. Education is the key word here - we are not going to stop ALL these songs overnight.

 

Thankfully, FTPing has decreased rapidly over the last season or so, hopefully The Billy Boys will go down the same route.

 

In saying all that, Rangers must now take a stance and say 'NO MORE' - we have eradicated FTP and The Billy Boys and we aren't budging on any others until UEFA stamp out ALL forms of BIGOTRY, RACISM etc from football.

 

Cammy F