calscot

I always feel these kind of posts which rubbish the opposition and then Rangers for not thrashing them are from people who have never played a competitive match in their lives... Every team should be beating other teams but somehow they sometimes lose. Football is a bit more complicated than that - the better team does not always win, and thankfully so. I would bet those two teams (who have the best records in their respective countries) are better than many teams that have defeated the likes of Aberdeen, Motherwell, Hibs etc. And yet we sometimes lose to those teams. Shit happens and it happens more often when a manager has been messed about in the transfer window by the board. We should have learned from the fiasco when Walter was messed around - a manager who has the best record for Rangers in the Champions League / European Cup and Europa/UEFA Cup. Even he couldn't put a decent performance in those circumstances. There was a combination of bad circumstances, bad luck and bad performances, but if you've followed Rangers for long, you'll know that's not exactly unusual for us in Europe.

The current manager has already done much in Europe, with mixed results - some the best we have ever had and some pretty poor. I have no idea how he will fare if he is still manager when we next qualify to compete. I have no reason to believe he will do worse than can be reasonably expected for our squad, quality of opposition and circumstances at the time - honestly. I think you need to look up the word "fact" in the dictionary. Rangers were not beaten by ANY pub teams last season - FACT! As in the REAL meaning of "fact". the fact is they did not play any pub teams as that would firstly would not provide enough of a challenge and secondly the risk of injuring valuable, professional footballers due to the lack of skill of the opposition would be too great. Check the fixtures and results - there are no pub teams mentioned. Maybe you should stop the pish lies and propaganda to disparage Rangers and its manager? I don't know what forum that rubbish should be on - certainly not a Rangers supporters' one.

Eh? Did you read the original post or am I missing something? A bit left field for what thread is about.

Did King record the verbal agreement ie does he have any evidence?

Exactly what did WE do wrong? What did anyone currently active at Rangers do wrong? We're a victim of a bunch of factors all coming together: SDM thinking that EBTs are legal and playing hard and fast with them while running Rangers at a loss and then buggering up his own companies to make them virtually insolvent. HMRC deciding that to ignore EBTs for 15 years or so and then deciding to claim they were illegal, backdating all monies due and trebling that with interest and penalties. Refusing to do deals and making an example of Rangers. Who also threatened to appeal, appeal and appeal again making Rangers helpless to trade without eventually going into administration. Bank of Scotland being one of the criminally greedy and incompetent banks who obviously don't understand basic finance, getting themselves into trouble, being taken over by a similarly incompetent Lloyds who couldn't actually afford to do so and who then put disproportionate pressure on a club who were paying off their debts and forcing the sale to Whyte. A charlatan, Whyte who seen the problem of administration and decided to make some money for himself while reducing all risk for his own cash. A greedy loan shark company, Ticketus who immorally lent Whyte the money based on season ticket sales before he bought the club, and demanded an unsustainable rate of interest. An administration company who don't seem to be able to make headway. A bunch of others from the SFA, SPL, other clubs, even former Rangers board members and employees who seem to do all they can to stop Rangers coming through the crisis. A massive delay in the verdict of the EBT case. A corrupt SFA and SPL who want to make up the rules as they go along to make sure we can't compete for years. Etc, etc, etc. I can see a lot of wrong doing here, but very little from "US" or Rangers FC itself.

Isn't it 18 now?

I seem to recall being getting to the UEFA final as assistant manager... Wasn't Durrant the coach at the time? They were both also in what could be considered the most successful team in our history in Europe. I'm afraid with that last statement your knowledge of Rangers is severely lacking but then I presume you're still at school...

Perhaps it should be percentage of season ticket income - after all that's the only income you can "safely" rely on to any extent...

In two seasons' time, Scotland's UEFA coefficient will likely be in the mid 20's at best and quite possibly worse, due to the non-participation by Scotland's biggest contributor to the current metric. That means for the forseeable future, when we are able to enter the competitions, if we win the league we will have two qualifying rounds to appear in the Champions League, and if we're runners up we will need three qualifying rounds just to gain entry to the Europa League. Not only that, it is near certain our club coefficient will drop from a high of 24th in 2008 to the 80's, meaning our chances of being seed in the later rounds are almost non-existent. We may be missing Europe next season but it looks like the norm will become us scrabbling against our mediocre European peers and then facing the lottery of a what will become teams that are way above our acquired lowly status - teams we'd have scoffed at in years passed. If we survive that we'll then either be up against a champion of a better league or a top 5 to 8 team or cup winner from the big five leagues where, if we're lucky enough to draw the likes of Stoke, the reward will be akin to facing the likes of Man U in the past. Ironically, the path to the Champions League actually looks slightly more do-able... That will be our gauntlet just to get to the league stages which, on the face of what has been happening to our club and country lately, the rare occasions this will be negotiated, will likely have us humiliated and out at the earliest convenience. We may have the pain of no Europe next season but when we return, the annual pain for both us and Celtic will be excruciating and the money to made without qualification will be slim pickings - and like a lottery win when the Champions League is achieved. I can see our aspirations dropping and the lack of funding affecting the type of players both Old Firm teams can buy and wage for merely domestic competition. We may have just had a pep talk about our European future from Green, but at the moment it looks yellow and barren, and ultimately "blue"...

I think he's unlucky to be sacked after winning one cup and narrowly losing the final of the other. Eighth in league is hardly very inspiring but also hardly a disaster when considering the number of teams with loads of money to spend. The only real embarrassment is Everton finishing above them and being level on points with Fulham. It's pretty normal for Liverpool to finish behind Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea, while Man City have spent a billion on their team and as their money is from oil they make the league very Mickey Mouse. Tottenham and Newcastle have spent a lot lately and it's no disgrace to be behind them for a season. I believe they also qualify for Europe in two ways - League Cup winners and Cup runners up when winners already have qualified. I think he deserved one more go to establish his squad and give a better statistical sample of what he can do. What if they get a new manager, finish say 5th in the league but go out in the cups before the semis and win nothing? For me, in England, I'd rather win a cup and finish 8th than finish than finish 5th and win nothing. Of course 4th brings the CL and so could be considered better - however how realistic is it for the likes of Liverpool with Man City, Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal all with more money? Maybe he was a shite manger - I don't know, but his level of success was to me very passable for a Liverpool in the modern day. Maybe they just need to get real...

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When watching the video, those guys really come across as a bunch of total wierdos. If it was kids, it might be understandable - but that is not expected, normal behaviour of grown men with jobs and family and/or other responsibilities. There's nothing wrong with a bit of exuberance but how people can get their kicks from shouting and singing stuff that is considered offensive (and damaging to the club they purport to support) and then being unable to stop themselves jumping up and down, deliberately taking the ceiling out is bordering on a sociopathic personality disorder. The fact that there will probably be people of reasonable mental health who are drawn by the mass hysteria is pretty disturbing. It's incredibly embarrassing to be associated with people like that just because you support the same team. Is this the result of the care in the community programme? Or just a sign of the amoral times we live in? I think there are a lot of Rangers fans who think that kind of behaviour is more prevalent in the other support across the city but there is an increasing number of our own who let us down badly.

I'll forgive him if his mental state is that weak but only if it's proven in the case and therefore we win it.

Before Whyte I think it's a fact we were lowering our debt to Lloyds from £33m to £18m in about three years - while paying interest on that debt of about £1m per year. So it looks like outwith the debt we were making 500k SURPLUS a month. The reason we were running £1m a month loss at administration is that we'd run out of up front money and had about four months left of payments. That means we made a loss of about £4m for the year. That's £10m less than previous seasons. Where did the money go - well how about the £8m that went to Ticketus? A poor European display and in the cups probably cost us around £5m. Reduced ticket sales another £1m odd. Making about £14m. Balance that up with the sale of Jelavic and the numbers aren't too far away. Other missing moneys could be from Whyte skimming the club - although I think he made most of the money from Ticketus and the Arsenal shares.

One thing is to be said - Hugh Adam is a cunt of the highest order.

The club exists and will continue to exist. The decision is on the club, not the company. If the club doesn't exist then we'll have to apply to the SFL as a new club with no history. If it was that easy then you could change your company every year to rid yourself of any punishments.

I think it's different from the debt as that is tied to the company - which changes; the embargo is tied to the SFA membership - which stays the same. We want to change the newco to the old SFA membership and so the embargo should follow. At the very least we'd have to re-apply for membership and that could be one of the conditions of acceptance. The SFA have us over a barrel there. However, there is the anomaly created if we lose all our players - but they may just say, well you'll have to sign a whole squad of under 18's... I can't see how we can avoid the embargo unless we take it to a higher power...

You seem to be loudly agreeing with me there... Maybe they should be but you've just argued that often they are not. If lots of them are not, why treat them as if they are all corporate entities? I'm not sure which side of the fence you are on here... However, in my opinion they shouldn't be run as playthings or as corporations, they should be run as sporting entities - ie a club. More of a non-profit making mutual. Again, I think you're kind of arguing against yourself there. You are right, they are there to hold up football law, not corporate law and should act accordingly. They should understand the problems of football clubs more than anyone else and should be there to protect them, not put them out of business due to the acts of one or two people. Football clubs are not normal businesses. If that were so Rangers would probably no longer exist and a lot of Rangers customers would probably now be customers of Celtic! Just as if Tesco went out of business, a lot of their customers would move to their local Asda. There is an obvious difference there, is there not? The SFA should know that too. It is the fans of all clubs who are now suffering due to treating one club like a corporate business. Just whose interests are the SFA there to protect? Shareholders, customers or fans? I disagree, I think that the model doesn't work and if you apply it rigorously you will probably end up being relegated. It seems to me that fiscally prudent clubs suffer badly and win nothing which is why only half-arsed business principles are applied. Then egos come into play, borrowing becomes disproportionate and you end up with the amount of football debt we have. To be successful in business you need to make a good profit - there is room for many companies to be successful on this metric. To be successful in football you need to win the league - there can only be one. In the former, lots of businesses can speculate to accumulate; in the football world everyone speculates, only one accumulates. Not only that you have to compete with companies that are making exceptional losses but still survive - where does that happen in the corporate world? The only time that happens is when someone gambles to corner the market. That's all fine and well in a cut throat business world, but do you really want it to apply to football?

Why not just play an under 18 team in the cup - protects the first pick squad, gives them experience and sticks two fingers up at the competition which will also affect the sponsors and TV companies?

Once again I can't see why we need wage cuts unless we're going to have a reduced income. Fair enough we won't have Europe but I suspect that balances what we have saved in paying back £5m per year of our debt plus over a million in interest. We also will have lost at least three players (unless we ask Papac to stay on, which could be a desirable option). I can also see the new owner absorbing a bit of a loss in the first season due to lack of European football, to keep the squad in good order for the following season. They will probably put some money up at the beginning to shore up their investment. If we have a war chest, what better way to spend it than on some of the most promising 17 year olds in the world - well, the ones we can afford? We should maybe then additionally spend some money on the best coach for the developing of young talent we can afford - unless you already think McDowell is one of the best around. It's probably a bit petty but I also think we should maybe avoid spending any money in Scotland during the embargo. Unless it's peanuts for players worth a lot more. However, due to the logistics of bringing youngsters to the club with regards to their age, that might be difficult.

To be honest I doubt a court would grant this. I don't think they would call a halt to all football business just to sort out a dispute that is supposed to be dealt with in-house. They might hear the case but I can't see them halting the competition.

Maybe so but the SFA are not a court of law and how many people really think that a football club is exactly the same as a corporation? One of the biggest problems of recent years, and a reason why clubs are in so much debt, is that people have been trying to run clubs like corporate companies. It's a model that just doesn't work on many levels and could eventually kill the game. They have realised that in the US and in Germany but we constantly get people pimping their corporate finance ideals when they just don't apply, and football in our country is a mess with the only people that are gaining are those that break those corporate rules. Man City did not win the Premiership by following a Tesco model - £200m losses ever year on a £150m turnover would put them out of business pretty quickly. No, football clubs are not corporate entities and they should be protected by the associations from being someone's plaything - just ask the hard core Gretna fans.

The biggest problem I have with the decision is that the SFAs findings were at best a load of bollocks and at worse complete lies. There was no competency there at all. How they can say that the other directors knew and did nothing and did not bring it to public attention is beyond belief when two of them were suspended and about four others resigned, two with comments how they were being kept in the dark and that they suspected the owner was not running the club in a proper manner. The SFA are either idiots or liars. As for the Scottish cup and the league, I think the answer is to play an under 18 team - you can hardly get punished for playing an understrength team when you have a signing embargo for players over 18. The fans should also boycotte the away games. Can you imagine a small team getting a home draw against Rangers and thinking "jackpot" only to find that no Rangers fans buy tickets and the home fans are treated to a game against an under 18 team? However, we should perhaps play a stronger team in the cup games at home and encourage our fans to attend to bring in some much needed cash. The sad thing is, if Ally doesn't win the league next season despite the ban, he'll still get panned by his own "support"...

I think this is the biggest flaw in what HMRC are doing. If they said, "Right, no more of that!" and then hammered anyone after that then fair enough. I can't think of any justice system where this would be considered fair.

How much IS left in the fund?