Frankie

I agree with MF in that if we have a member's system then we may not strictly require fans on the board per se. I'd rather these important places went to people with key abilities whom the members can still vote out if required on a reasonably regular basis. Take away the aspect of Copland Joe competing with Govan William for a place on the board, then you take away some of the division we've seen in recent years.

The real question is just how many kites are the Trust flying just now...? I guess that may be answered on Saturday as they're certainly getting some much needed publicity and debate from the issue.

Welcome to Gersnet, miniblue! Obviously you highlight more important challenges facing such schemes. As such, can we really get our act together in time to get something concrete in place either on its own merits or to accompany/complement another bid? Is there are structure already in place that could be used quickly and effectively and how best do we reach the ordinary Copland Joe who isn't online or perhaps doesn't trust the online based groups who claim to represent fans?

UCB: As far as I'm concerned, ensuring supporters groups are retained is an essential part of the process. However, this should also be seen as an opportunity to improve/refine them to help remove the perception of 'in-fighting' or distrust that prevails amongst many online fans. Whilst that notion may well be exaggerated David Edgar has alluded to how important the internet is in terms of putting fan ownership in place. As such, one would ignore the politics (petty or otherwise) of that world at their peril. In my view, ensuring the success of such a scheme, credibility is everything. Thus, while the fan groups may say they are united (and I'd agree on the face of it they are), the deeper truth is not so straightforward. Obstacles remain in that regard but those in itself should not be a reason to not press ahead with change.

Raspberry > Blackberry so applies here I think.

Just don't click any links in this thread and you'll be fine MF...

Those with the following Nokia phones can d/load the app here (in beta so d/load at your own risk): http://www.tapatalk.com/nokia/tapatalk.dm Nokia S60 3th edition devices: * Nokia 5320 XpressMusic * Nokia 5630 XpressMusic * Nokia 5730 XpressMusic * Nokia 6210 Navigator * Nokia 6220 classic * Nokia 6650 fold * Nokia 6710 Navigator * Nokia 6720 classic * Nokia 6730 classic * Nokia 6760 slide * Nokia 6790 Surge * Nokia E52 * Nokia E55 * Nokia E71x * Nokia E72 * Nokia E75 * Nokia N78 * Nokia N79 * Nokia N85 * Nokia N86 8MP * Nokia N96 - Nokia S60 5th Edition devices: * Nokia 5800 XpressMusic * Nokia 5800 Navigation Edition * Nokia 5530 XpressMusic * Nokia 5230 * Nokia N97 * Nokia N97 mini * Nokia X6 Blackberry version will be available by early next year at latest.

I don't travel abroad so I'm not aware of what procedures do and don't happen. However, I've never heard of fan reps being available in situ during a game (or elsewhere) so am surprised this already happens. I was in Manchester though and didn't see any of the above. Obviously, if this does already happen, the scale needs to be extended/refined as it doesn't work very well. Rangers should demand their stewards are present right through the away trip. UEFA reps are also available so we should ensure they're present at turnstiles etc. More fans should be involved so people feel they can trust folk to raise issues. Like I say, it is up to us (and Rangers) to place pressure on the authorities to help us instead of blaming us. To answer your question (I ticked the Thomas Cook option), as I feel fans are entitled to go but we need to place more restrictions on how we facilitate their travel.

Definitely some fair points there MF. However, these same people, like us unhappy with little or no control of their investment, may also see this as an opportunity so caution must be taken. All the more reason for OMOV of course. Anyone fancy writing an article on all of this...?

Now on main site and Newsnow... http://www.gersnetonline.co.uk/2010/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=147:

Some excellent points made which I think cover my own opinions fairly accurately... Unfortunately the one staple for me - one man, one vote - is perhaps the biggest hurdle to achieve given high net worth fans will want more say for their 5/6/7 figure sum investments than you or I with our 3/4 figures. I'm not altogether sure how to find common ground there. To be positive, I obviously think the Rangers fans can own and run our club successfully. I also think we do have the talent amongst us to find an appropriate method to do that. However, those that suggest having the club help us are also right. Without their involvement, any scheme (no matter who runs it) lacks credibility amongst those that won't get involved unless they know who they're dealing with. For example, rightly or wrongly, too many supporters retain a distrust of the RST while the Assembly/Association lack the public profile that the Trust does have. As such, what I'd be looking to do here is put together some sort of PR friendly group to firstly gauge interest then try and realise some funds. I know this has been explored in recent years but perhaps the timing wasn't right then and is now. All the better if well-kent figures can get involved (and invest). I'm thinking fans in the members' lounge, ex-players, media personalities, former directors and even current club staff. Do that and you may attract the attention and imagination of the apathetic majority. Because these are the people that are important to the success of any scheme even if, conversely, they may be the least interested/active in the 'political' side of the machine. Of course many questions still remain: 1. Is Dave King still interested? We still need money men to back the scheme if we're talking �£30-50million is required to buy and run the club until next summer. 2. What part does Lloyds play? Can they be persuaded to reduce their price? 3. Just how much finance can we achieve? Enough to buy the club and stay afloat or enough to buy the club and retain success? 4. Can a scheme and ownership be in place before January? What happens if it isn't and we have to sell players? How will that affect fan interest? Lots of questions and challenges to overcome then. There is a gap in the market for a new genuine leader of our club and its incredibly loyal fans. Can that gap be filled and by whom?

I don't think this is a big deal -even if we all know the BBC are hardly impartial nowadays. If his football supporting leanings were important to the crime/story then fair enough but I don't think they were, were they?

Absolutely no way should we refuse tickets. Doing that suggests we have no idea how to fix the problem we have while laying the blame solely at our support. In actual fact there are various ways in which we can do this - some included above, some not. The club need to work with individual fans like yourself, fan groups, the police, the foreign office and opposition clubs to determine possible issues and resolve them before we travel. I didn't want to bore people with individual suggestions but since you ask here is my tuppence worth. There is no reason this can't be organised before the Seville match next month. I believe Rangers FC send advance parties of their own security staff to such venues. Why does it take until after games before the obvious failures in the facilities are highlighted? This should be done beforehand and, if necessary, restrictions placed upon how many tickets we accept. RSC and travel club members should have representatives put in place on this advance party and these people should form part of the security team at the game. During the match period itself, the club also have to be proactive. They must send their own security staff to travel with the away supporters to quickly identify possible issues in situ. Communication is key in that regard. I'm not saying some fans need to be arrested or split up from others but communicated with early to let them know the problems that may arise. If they ignore that advice, be it on their own head. At the ground, further staff need to be present to ensure the safe entrance of fans into the stadium while also being available in the aisles for questions/concerns during the game. High vis jackets can be used of a differing colour to stewards. These people can be first point of contacts in the event of issues that arise. I'm sure various fans who regularly travel wouldn't mind volunteering for such a task on a rotation basis. Similarly, these people can give out info from the club/security/UEFA if/when required. A two-way system of information gathering and communication is vital. The same methods can be used for ensuring the supporters leave the stadium and country in an orderly fashion. After match meetings can then be organised in Scotland to find out what worked well and what didn't before reports are sent to everyone in the travel club and every RSC. While not perfect, I suggest all the above can be done easily enough if the club and supporters really want to fix this problem. Dialogue is needed, respect given and official help offered.

Anyone can go as long as they pay their fiver... Babysitting today so not been online properly but will work my way through some of these very interesting posts tomorrow.

An excellent post which sums up the situation perfectly. One can't be outraged one minute then amused the next. Not at work today so will post this on the main site tomorrow.

We should be so lucky...

Not the only one starting a new job I hear....

Agree with most of that TB (doubt Souness would take the job though) but was trying to play devil's advocate somewhat with my first reply...

In some ways I don't blame Burley for dropping McGregor but agree the punishment was too severe despite the schoolboy antics of our keeper and Ferguson last season. I reckon Burley could address much of the ill-feeling and controversy about parts of his tenure by leading from the front and recalling both McGregor and Boyd for the Wales match. Right away, he'd then place the onus on the players and take the pressure off himself. Marshall isn't bad but he's not as good as McGregor (or Alexander for that matter). Burley's inconsistency of selection means we have a weaker Scotland team. Only he can rectify that.

See above video as well as 'Footie Chat' on what happened. Sky muted their microphones so the chant in the video wasn't heard. BBC commentators said silence was observed 'impeccably'.

But just in case: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5y2-U6Ll1Q]YouTube- Celtic's Remembrance Day Shame 8.11.09[/ame]

Methinks MF is pulling yer chain craig...

Rangers v St Johnstone Heart of Midlothian v St. Mirren Ties to be played on Tuesday 2nd and Wednesday 3rd February, 2010.

Can't disagree with any of that TB...

http://www.gersnetonline.co.uk/2010/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=145:a-tale-of-rancid-bigoted-scum-and-moronic-white-underclasses&catid=1:articles&Itemid=67 In a week where we have Rangers supporters labelled as 'rancid', 'bigots', 'scum', 'numb-skulls', 'white underclass', 'morons', 'knuckler-trailers' , 'vermin' and 'animals' (and that's in the broadsheet and tabloid media - not the phone-ins and unofficial forums!); exactly how does one work their way through all the hyperbole and faux moral outrage to reach the core of the problems these polemic articles speak of? As you can see from the plethora of abusive adjectives above, Thesaurus.com has had its fair share of hits this week from the usual outrage sources such as Graham Spiers (The Times), Anna Smith (Daily Mirror), Glen Glibbons (The Scotsman) and more. Criticism of the Rangers support from these brave literary warriers is nothing new and, in the main, it is water off a duck's back given their journalistic credibility is about as high as Ian Brines' refereeing abilities. That's not to say some of the criticism aimed our way is incorrect or unfair. If you look beyond the usual suspect's eagerness to attack their favourite subject; we can't deny in some aspects they are right. We do need to examine why we continually attract and cause problems on our travels. While it may not be as simple as these allegedly erudite crusaders suggest, we do not have our challenges to seek in this regard. As such, the club and support must work together to face these challenges and repair the damage done by the tiny percentage of fans who have let us down in recent years. While this percentage is extremely low, it isn't negligible as long as Sky go against their new policy of not offending their viewers by broadcasting pictures that worry and disappoint Rangers FC and their fans. Ergo, we do need to accept criticism, we do need to look inward and we do need to find innovative ways of ensuring we can follow, follow anywhere without fear of yobs letting us down or the subsequent barrage of abuse in the media afterwards. Deflecting or denying from that won't help. By the same token though, the people who cover such topics with such obvious glee also need to examine their behaviour. Do they honestly believe such eristic coverage is going to help eradicate the behaviour of the minority? Sure, they may not be immediately to blame for the actions of neds (or indeed stewards/police) but neither will they solve the issue with the petty point-scoring we read in the opening paragraph of this article. In fact, add in this ever-willing and excitable pack of rabid journalists to the overall mix then what one has is not a solution to the omnipresent stench of hooliganism, sectarianism, racism or even just unacceptable behaviour; but simply a catalyst to fuel the flames of paranoia, ignorance and hatred which only serves to increase said tension. As such, this coverage - juxtaposed with impotent authorities prevaricating to ensure the next million pounds of taxpayer money falls into their lap - doesn't reduce these minorities but only increases them. Thus, the next time these journalists pick up their Parker to write their next 'letter'to club executives, or the next time they open up their laptop to email their UEFA sources; perhaps they can look in the mirror first and ask if they really want to fix these problems or are they happy making five figure salaries from picking and choosing the battles depending on what colour the people involved wear? Will Spiers berate Celtic's green and white 'underclass' republicans spoiling minute silences? Will Gibbons write an 'open letter' 'to Peter Lawwell reminding him of decades of anti-British hatred from their support (going back a lot longer than 1969)? Will Anna Smith explore the 'racist and sectarian' elements of her beloved Hoops fans while asking for them to be banned from Europe? The fact is every club has their fair share of yobs who let down the majority. I see little improvement from any club in that respect as I'm told to 'go home ya hun' by clubs of not just green colours either most weeks in the SPL. The fact is the SPL, the Scottish Government and a media only interested in their next shilling are complicit in the problems we see and hear every week in our national game. The fact is, despite millions of pounds spent and millions of words written, I still await any tangible results in that regard. So the next time you reach for the dictionary to find your next needless insult, ask yourself who is really to blame. You may find the answer isn't as easy to find as you think.