Miller signs for Bursaspor - Undisclosed fee

[bmck 117]

As BD says if i could double my wages at another company I would be out the door before they could say goodbye.

 

That's just too simplistic a view. I could've doubled my wages on several occasions, but my employers were good to me in a difficult period so I haven't. Now I want to leave for another reason and they've went infinitely out their way to support me, despite it being at a considerable cost to them. I'd say I'm not unusual. If your work show loyalty to you, you show loyalty to them. Even if you would accept the job, you wouldn't be out the door before they could say goodbye unless they were bad to you. In reality, there's more to life than money, employers do show loyalty, as do employees, though not always, and any offer of double money you weigh up against other more important things - like your values. You could double your money right now by being a coke dealer, but you wouldn't do that.

 

Playing for Rangers for a bit less money is better than playing for Bursaspor. Anyone who chooses anything else is mental for having warped values and deserves no sympathy.

Edited January 20, 2011 by bmck

[pete 2,499]

That's just too simplistic a view. I could've doubled my wages on several occasions, but my employers were good to me in a difficult period so I haven't. Now I want to leave for another reason and they've went infinitely out their way to support me, despite it being at a considerable cost to them. In reality, there's more to life than money, employers do show loyalty, as do employees, though not always, and any offer of double money you weigh up against other more important things - like your values. You could double your money right now by being a coke dealer, but you wouldn't do that.

 

Playing for Rangers for a bit less money is better than playing for Bursaspor. Anyone who chooses anything else is mental for having warped values and deserves no sympathy.

 

You are totally correct your health and your happiness are far more important than money. The thing is though if Miller stayed(given that he is not a Rangers fan) then he may have a feeling of "if only" for the rest of his life. At some point in your life you want to try and stretch your borders. This is probably the last chance he will get to do it. As I say if he takes the easy road then he may regret it for the rest of his life.

[craig 5,199]

I'm not really sure how to respond as you've not said what you don't understand or "Are you saying this?" or anything. But anyway, I don't think we should be making any effort to see it from Kenny Miller's point of view. The only person doing that should be Kenny Miller. We should be demanding they love the jersey, even though we know in our hearts most won't. That's my point. If you start just accepting journey men money grabbing footballer's perspective on playing for Rangers as conventional wisdom, it's a bad road. I think the day we start thinking players of Kenny Miller's quality should be anything but honoured to play for Rangers is quite bad, even when we know in the modern world it's the sad reality most of the time. I dunno what's difficult to get in the idea that we should have sympathy for KM's motives when they align with the good of Rangers and he is interested in the good of Rangers, and none when they don't.

 

I thought you said there is NO reality though ?

[craig 5,199]

That's just too simplistic a view. I could've doubled my wages on several occasions, but my employers were good to me in a difficult period so I haven't. Now I want to leave for another reason and they've went infinitely out their way to support me, despite it being at a considerable cost to them. I'd say I'm not unusual. If your work show loyalty to you, you show loyalty to them. Even if you would accept the job, you wouldn't be out the door before they could say goodbye unless they were bad to you. In reality, there's more to life than money, employers do show loyalty, as do employees, though not always, and any offer of double money you weigh up against other more important things - like your values. You could double your money right now by being a coke dealer, but you wouldn't do that.

 

Playing for Rangers for a bit less money is better than playing for Bursaspor. Anyone who chooses anything else is mental for having warped values and deserves no sympathy.

 

What is it with all this "reality" all of a sudden Barry ? :devil:

 

You are, quite obviously, correct in that it isnt all about money. I had similar circumstances 3 or 4 years ago when I was offered better money elsewhere but I stayed where I was primarily because I like the people I work with and I like the company. I wouldnt say I was unusual either.

 

However, football IS an unusual business with constant chopping and changing of playing personnel (other than Rangers recently I guess) and leaving to go ply your trade elsewhere is almost the norm these days. I am not sure that I would suggest that teh club have shown Miller any loyalty - strong rumour has it that were it not for WS's intervention then we would have sold Miller in August. It is hardly showing signs of loyalty when the club look to rid themselves of a player. I have no issue with them doing so, just as I have no issue with Miller deciding to leave now.

 

I dont think Rangers have been particularly loyal to any of their current players - but then, that begs the question, how would you determine loyalty ?

 

Not sure I would agree with the "coke dealer" analogy either - I know exactly what you are saying and know you arent applying it to Kenny Miller - but given it is Miller we are discussing then it should be considered that his move isnt to an illegal job. Consider your values yes, but when it isnt something illegal then surely you are considering two legitimate options, stay or go. Some will choose money as that may be what they value most - nothing wrong with that in my opinion. No worse than someone staing in their current job for fear of trying something new.

 

Why is playing for Rangers better than playing for Bursaspor ? Why is it that anything else is mental for having warped values ? A Bursaspor fan would say the exact opposite - does that mean they have warped values ? Or are you projecting your reality, where there is no "the" reality ? The Turkish league may be shite, but surely it isnt any worse than the SPL ? They dont play the same shitty teams 4 or 5 times a season either, do they ? The weather is consistently better it is not ? Bursaspor played in the same Champions League as we did this season did they not ? Genuine question Barry, I am curious as to why playing for Rangers is better than playing for Bursaspor ?

[Totti 0]

Well who cares he's gone and both Jelavic and Naismith are ten times better

[bmck 117]

I thought you said there is NO reality though ?

 

Pedant. 'A' sad reality most of the time, then, from my perspective.

[bmck 117]

What is it with all this "reality" all of a sudden Barry ? :devil:

 

You are, quite obviously, correct in that it isnt all about money. I had similar circumstances 3 or 4 years ago when I was offered better money elsewhere but I stayed where I was primarily because I like the people I work with and I like the company. I wouldnt say I was unusual either.

 

However, football IS an unusual business with constant chopping and changing of playing personnel (other than Rangers recently I guess) and leaving to go ply your trade elsewhere is almost the norm these days. I am not sure that I would suggest that teh club have shown Miller any loyalty - strong rumour has it that were it not for WS's intervention then we would have sold Miller in August. It is hardly showing signs of loyalty when the club look to rid themselves of a player. I have no issue with them doing so, just as I have no issue with Miller deciding to leave now.

 

I dont think Rangers have been particularly loyal to any of their current players - but then, that begs the question, how would you determine loyalty ?

 

Not sure I would agree with the "coke dealer" analogy either - I know exactly what you are saying and know you arent applying it to Kenny Miller - but given it is Miller we are discussing then it should be considered that his move isnt to an illegal job. Consider your values yes, but when it isnt something illegal then surely you are considering two legitimate options, stay or go. Some will choose money as that may be what they value most - nothing wrong with that in my opinion. No worse than someone staing in their current job for fear of trying something new.

 

I'm ignoring all this for the moment, because it's to fall into the trap I want to avoid. My job, as a fan, isn't to worry about whether Kenny Miller has good reasons for leaving. It's about the good of Rangers. The extent to which Kenny Miller isn't making his decisions on the same basis as I would (ie: the good of Rangers), is the extent to which as a Rangers fan I can't extend sympathy. If you made the same argument for why Joe Ninety should move from any random club to any other random club, then fair enough, I'll judge it by those criteria.

 

At the end of the day, you can either see this situation with a view to Rangers' best interests or Kenny Miller's. You might be able to understand it from his perspective - just like you can understand why the students protests and not actually agree with it as a policeman - but you don't need to swap your perspective as a fan for his.

 

Why is playing for Rangers better than playing for Bursaspor ?

 

Because I'm a Rangers fan, and Rangers are better than Bursaspor.

 

Why is it that anything else is mental for having warped values ?

 

Because I'm not-not a Rangers fan.

 

A Bursaspor fan would say the exact opposite - does that mean they have warped values ?

 

In as much they think Bursaspor are better than Rangers. Crazy Turks.

 

Or are you projecting your reality, where there is no "the" reality ?

 

There's always reality as it suits someone. I appreciate you're trying be objective, but your objectivity suits Kenny Miller better than it suits Rangers.

 

“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”

“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.”

 

My basic point is that there's either Kenny Miller's opinion on the right thing to do, and there's my opinion on the right thing for Kenny Miller to do. From my perspective, as a Rangers fan, it's insane to turn down a decent offer to play for Rangers. The question is, who's view is to be master - mines or Kenny's? Just because you can see something from someone else's point of view doesn't mean that has to be your point view, or even that you need to think they have a good point of view. I can understand a Celtic fan's point of view on the singing of Hello Hello, but I have no sympathy for it. I can understand KM's decision to leave, but I have no sympathy for it. He's either acting in Rangers best interests, or he doesn't exist, surely. The same can go for Murray, obviously. It's not to say The Board are right ahead of Miller, just that as a Rangers fan it just doesn't matter what Miller wants, or his family wants, or whether it's sunny over there - I'm not sure why this seems strange to say.

 

 

The Turkish league may be shite, but surely it isnt any worse than the SPL ?

 

The Scottish league is better because it has Rangers in it. If I were a generic football fan I may think they were about even, but as a Rangers fan I think it would be better to play in Scotland for Rangers than England for Man U.

 

They dont play the same shitty teams 4 or 5 times a season either, do they ?

 

No.

 

The weather is consistently better it is not ?

 

Yes.

 

Bursaspor played in the same Champions League as we did this season did they not ?

 

Yes.

 

Genuine question Barry, I am curious as to why playing for Rangers is better than playing for Bursaspor ?

 

Because Rangers are better than Bursaspor.

Edited January 20, 2011 by bmck

[craig 5,199]

So your defense Barry is simply that Rangers are the best, right ? I guess we should be expecting Messi to arrive sometime soon.

 

You say what is in the best interests of Rangers - fair enough. It seems Rangers deem that selling him is in their best interests.... So better he go in your opinion ? same as Miller himself then.

 

Whilst I understand the whole defense of "Rangers are the best".... Surely the objective part of you -we all have it- would tell you that it simply isn't the case any longer. Take off your blue tinted specs

 

whether we like it or not, we are not the club we once were.

 

Personally I am non-plussed at Miller leaving, although I believe his leaving undoubtedly dents our title hopes -and the club hierarchy shoulder much of that blame for taking the short term cash at the possible expense of future CL monies. Miller has his reasons and has made his choice, what I disagree with is that we stand here and judge, on his behalf, what his morals, values and decision should be. It is all far too easy for us to pontificate that we would play for Rangers for a fraction of what he gets paid.... Not one of us could guarantee we would make a different decision if we were ever fortunate enough to be in his position.

[johnnyk 158]

I think it's pretty simple like Pete says, reports i've read are he was offered about �£10k a week or less from Rangers on a one year deal whereas Bursaspor are offering �£50k a week on a 2.5 year deal. Unless you are very happy and loyal not many would turn that down, and unless you are in that position it's easy to come on here and say otherwise IMO.

[bmck 117]

So your defense Barry is simply that Rangers are the best, right ?

 

From a fan's perspective.

 

I guess we should be expecting Messi to arrive sometime soon.

 

Yup, just like we should be expecting win the league every year and get to the latter stages of Europe and attract all the biggest names. It's a fans job to expect the best, although you can disagree over what the best is.

 

You say what is in the best interests of Rangers - fair enough. It seems Rangers deem that selling him is in their best interests.... So better he go in your opinion ? same as Miller himself then.

 

My opinion on what's best for Rangers needn't be the same as the people running Rangers.

 

Whilst I understand the whole defense of "Rangers are the best".... Surely the objective part of you -we all have it- would tell you that it simply isn't the case any longer. Take off your blue tinted specs

 

Mate, it's other people's jobs to be objective - reporters (heh!), historians, people making the decisions based on money. I would say it's a fan's job to expect more than is objectively possible otherwise you'll end up saying "Aye, well, we're bound to get beat today, no point being down about it, it's statistically likely that we're going to lose some games and that really, objectively, rangers are just one club like any other, and, actually, when, you think about it, is there any objective bassis for even liking rangers more than anyone else and in the end this is all just atoms bouncing about and has no objective meaning at all". I think it's funny when people say we all have to be objective they mean objective to precisely the degree they are, and their subjective opinion is. In this case, thinking 'objectively' has only got us to agreeing with Kenny Miller, but we could easily take it further and say that it doesn't matter what KM does because it's just people kicking a bit of leather around a park. In truth, is not increased objectivity that lets us view things from Kenny Miller's perspective, it's just the belief that money's more important than Rangers masking itself as objectivity. It may be, in a lot of areas, in our own lives, and rightly so, but that doesn't mean shouldn't expect differently just as the ordinary part of being fan, even if it is hypocritical.

 

whether we like it or not, we are not the club we once were.

 

Yes we are. We just have less money.

 

Personally I am non-plussed at Miller leaving, although I believe his leaving undoubtedly dents our title hopes -and the club hierarchy shoulder much of that blame for taking the short term cash at the possible expense of future CL monies.

 

Agreed.

 

Miller has his reasons and has made his choice, what I disagree with is that we stand here and judge, on his behalf, what his morals, values and decision should be.

 

Yet you're willing to stand here in judgement of what my values are. Saying it's bad not to try to see something from someone else's perspective (unless it's mine). My straightforward belief is that it's an honour to play for Rangers, and even if neither the players nor the club think this is the case, then that's upto them. It's not like I'm going to hate KM, I just think he looks at things the wrong way. He's not making the effort to look at things from my point of view (else he would have signed), so why should I make the effort to look at it from his?

 

 

It is all far too easy for us to pontificate that we would play for Rangers for a fraction of what he gets paid.... Not one of us could guarantee we would make a different decision if we were ever fortunate enough to be in his position.

 

It's not pontificating (unlike your "I don't think that we should stand here and judge" which was judging me ), it's just being a Rangers supporter. It doesn't matter if we would do it if we were in his position, because we're not. We can only look at things from our own position.

 

It's not that I'm even saying it's bad to pursue good money over a club, if KM was in the same situation down south I'd have sympathy for him. It's just I'm a Rangers supporter, so while he's here a different set of criteria apply. While he's playing for the greatest club in the history of the world he should really be willing to let his family starve to pull on that jersey, it's just such an honour. Obviously now that he's commited his act of insanity and moved on we should just wish him well.

Edited January 20, 2011 by bmck