craig

They will end up winning nothing.....

Cracking bet, IMO, is Skybet offering 7/4 for an English team to win CL.

Mind if I move this to footy chat Cammy, isnt really a Gers article is it ?

"Turning up is fine, not singing is fine, but I don't know how you can do so and then slag anyone off for not having passion, enthusiasm, tenacity or guts..." I personally don't think it is hypocrisy of the fans to have this attitude. The fans are supporting the team because they love the club. It isnt their responsibility to have the above traits. The passion, enthusiasm, tenacity and guts really should come from the players who are being PAID to carry out the job at hand and there were plenty of our players on Sunday who didn't really look like they wanted to be at work.

Whilst I agree...... much of the negativity is also stemming from completely inept performances. If the team were to actually START a game with HIGH TEMPO they may actually invigorate the fans. But when they start with the inevitable "slow start" there is very much a "here we go again" attitude from the stands. I am sure the majority of fans don't WANT to be negative, but they also need to see their passion met by much of the same from the players and, for the most part this season, that has been sadly lacking.

Didn't know you were that way inclined Frankie :fish:

Thanks for taking the time do also do a write-up Norris.

Again I admire your positivity. However, our financial future looks bleak. 1. SDM wants to sell, no-one seems interested. 2. We have sizeable debts which are hurting financially, even the interest payments. 3. The only way we can buy is to sell. However, looking at our financial state the likelihood is that we will sell the likes of Bougherra for a nice profit but the replacements will not cost nearly as much (if indeed we do re-invest). Given our perilous financial predicament the chances are that we would be selling to lower debts. Yes, we could "do a Cuellar" by selling a prize asset and bringing someone in who looks just as good (Bougherra) for a fraction of the cost. However, it will only take one or two failed attempts at this and we are back to square one (and, it could be argued, that this happened last pre-season - 2 mill for Kenny Miller...... who would pay to buy him now ? 1 mill for Velicka - see Miller. 2.6 for Edu - the list goes on). Simply put we have to sell to buy - but we have to be WISE in doing so. We can't afford transfer market mistakes - which makes it a very precarious position to be in. 4. If we have to sell to buy and even then we will likely see more money coming in than going out (I actually hope this IS the case because the other alternative doesnt bear thinking about given our finances) then will we be a stronger team for it ? Quite possibly not, although this is very subjective at this stage. 5. Given the low debts and, on the face of it, the better fiscal management and prudence, on the other side of the city it would appear that one half of the OF is on somewhat of an even financial footing whilst the other is dangerously close to the precipice - and we know who is who...... makes it worrying in terms of how we "catch up". We can only be thankful for their ineptitude too and that they have a poor manager (albeit one that has won 3 in a row, and going for 4). 6. We have ZERO vision at the top in our club. See, I would love to share your optimism (and I am forever an optimist anyway) but there are so many negatives about our club right now that outweight the positives that I simply struggle to share the optimism. I sure hope we see the pendulum swing our way once more but whilst we have the people "leading" the club that we have at present then I fear it will be a very long, dark, road for us. And I can't see how we come through these troubled times "relatively unscathed" - at least not with the management (Chairman, CEO, manager et al) that we currently have. Hope I am wrong. Also, dont think that because we are an "institution" that we wont go under. Celtic very nearly did but for McCann and we could too. It could actually be argued that we are in a more likely position to go under than they were because the economy was nowhere near as bad when he took over, there was value in buying Celtic and the credit markets were easier to gain access to.

No problems here Jon. Let us know if the problems persist.

To be fair, some of them will go through attrition. Hemdani for example, his contract is up so he will be let go. Anyone still on a contract though will be very, very hard to sell - unless, of course, they are 1st team players and, even then, only a handful would be truly wanted.

Sorry Shroomz but whilst I admire your positivity - to completely ignore anything negative going on at our club is nothing but folly. We are perilously close to financial ruin. Of that there is no doubt. Look at the financials, look at the debt, look at the fact the banks are bringing in a team, look at statements from the club itself. It is looking you right in the eye. We have been told more than once that the squad will have to be trimmed down. This is a cost cutting exercise - again, of that there is no doubt. If you think that the only players leaving will be fringe players on small salaries then I think you are deluded. Why would it not be the better (more marketable) players on decent wages that go, especially given the now infamous statement that "every player is for sale" statement in January. What has changed since then ? Not much. We will be cutting our squad - sure, some of it by attrition (Hemdani and Dailly spring to mind) but there is little doubt, to me, that we will be losing some senior members of our squad. And by the way, we ARE a shit team. Cammy has mentioned so many things that are wrong about BOTH sides of the OF. We are parochial, if we finish above "the other lot" then it is a successful season - sadly that is what many want without too much regard for whether we are performing well, progressing as a club, bringing through our own youth etc etc. Win at all costs, and that doesnt always help. I said a couple of years ago when PLG took over that I would suffer not winning the league so long as we "progressed". WS certainly has us "competing" but can any of us honestly say that as a club we have "progressed" since WS came in ? I cant. The players are not even doing the basics well. And just because they have had some mediocre success in Europe in the last 5 years doesnt necessarily tell you that either of the OF teams are decent NOW. Celtic have been poor in Europe, so have we. Celtic have been poor in the SPL, so have we. If you dont believe that then fine - but the fare being provided to us weekly is DIRE.

Obviously Burley is listening intently to the mhedia. Brown most certainly is not all he is cracked up to be. I still believe next season we will see a better player at Ibrox....... Kevin Thomson "Half the price, twice the player"

Celtic had a couple of very decent chances in the 1st half whilst we had none of note. Can't agree that it was an even first half. We had the better of the 2nd but they were better in the first and could have been a couple of goals to the good.

I agree, I dont see the Scottish Cup being sufficient for WS to keep his job. To keep his job he HAS to win the league

beat me to it. Seems he was right, they could have scored had you not stopped his attempted clearance. Good work Norris

Jon, you are being every bit as biased as Gav. Gerrard IS a diving, cheating bassa (and I am not making that statement as a Liverpool hater). He constantly looks for the foul and, in fact, if you watch him he gets the ball into positions where he can throw himself at a challenge to create the contact - that, in my book, is cheating.

I think any manager should make the decisions he feels will win games, regardless of the vitriol and ill-feeling he will suffer from the fans. But I fail to see how the introduction of Dailly was an attempt at winning the game. It looked more to me as if WS was accepting penalties would be the fate. However, just to contradict myself...... prior to Dailly's introduction we were actually creating the better chances. Boruc had a couple of very decent saves, so it could be argued that the tactics and formation were working. Again, however, Dailly was STILL the wrong introduction - it really should have been Edu - younger, fresher, fitter. Who would be a football manager, eh ?

Shame on you :devil:

The difference between Barca and Rangers though is that although both try to stifle the other team Barca do it high up the pitch and as soon as they get the ball they look to move forward at pace to hurt the opposition. Rangers do it on the 18 yd line and when they get the ball they dont move it with any pace at all, almost sighing with relief that the opposition didnt score. What I will say though is that we, the fans, played into the media's hands over the "negativity" debate last year. This could be controversial but I, for one, would have liked to have seen us KEEP the 4-5-1 formation. What we needed were a couple of true wide players in the midfield and a proper attacker who could play the lone role (and I think Lafferty, if given the chance, can play that role effectively). Funnily enough we also already have the wide players (on the left) to assist there (Aaron, Fleck (even though not his true position), Beasley (if he could ever find form) and on the other side we have the converted Novo. What WS should have done pre-season (and hindsight is 20/20) is said "right, I like this 4-5-1 formation so I am going to get the players who will enhance it" and went out and got a true right mid and a striker to also play the role. He didn't do that though. And before I hear all the "but 4-5-1 in the SPL isnt necessary because we could be steam-rolling teams" it is painfully obvious to me that if you have the proper personnel then a 4-5-1 quickly becomes a 4-3-3 which is even more adventurous than the 4-4-2 that most crave. You also have 5 in the midfield to prevent the opposition from getting past you, you shouldnt be overcome by their midfield when you have 5 in it and then once you have the ball you break at speed. Our problem is that we havent really had the personnel to properly play that system (aside, it would seem, from when we were playing Naismith and Burke in those wide positions). I wouldnt mind seeing the 4-5-1 if we had a striker who couple play the lone role up front - we have the midfielders for it (a midfield 5 of Fleck/Aaron, Ferguson/Thomson, Mendes, Davis, Novo) seems like a very decent midfield for me and you also have all of them playing their preferred position. Sorry for the rant.

That is obviously your prerogative to feel that way. However, for this bear, being top of the Scottish game HAS to mean winning it, especially when we all feel that the Scottish game is a two horse race. Being 2nd in a 2 horse race is still abject failure to me. As I say though, it is about opinions. If you think continually finishing 2nd in a 2 horse race is good enough then so be it. I happen to think it is a losing mentality. And don't tell me that we are not continually finishing 2nd in a 2 horse race - how many have they won in the last 10 years ? 8 ? That is enough of a trend to have me very concerned. I see both sides of this argument and I actually fully agree with you that the PLAYERS have to take responsibility for their actions. However, the management are culpable as they are responsible for tactics, formations, motivations etc.

I am not convinced we are disagreeing cal. Re your first point, I am not saying we should be much better than them but I do contend that we have the better players and better squad but our manager simply isnt utilising them the way he should and that he isnt motivating them well enough. Re your 2nd point, I most certainly accept the metrics you use but my point is that, although they are the norm, most accepted metrics, they dont tell the WHOLE story. If we finish first this season are we a better team than the one that finished 3rd in 2006 ? Not necessarily as it could be that the teams below us this year are worse than in 2006 and/or the Celtic and Hearts teams from 2006 were better teams than their counterparts of today. In fact, I dont think it is even debatable that those two teams were better in 2006. I understand your metrics and accept them, but they dont tell the whole story. What metrics would I use ? Not sure but the only thing I see that would be worthwhile would be to look at our squad player for player in whichever years we wish to compare and do an individual comparison - but even then that is subjective. Plus, as you say, there is more to the comparisons that merely the players - as we are seeing, unfortunately, is that finances too play a pivotal role.

That was unbelievable. He was YARDS away from Sagna, took a look, dived, and had the cheek to be upset he didnt get the pen. Deserves a ban for that. Shocking !!

Let me get this straight. You think that changing manager will hurt our chances of winning the league but altering players contracts, giving them less guaranteed cash, with 10 games to go will help ? Aside from the fac that you cant do that to their contracts whilst midway through.... Sorry but your previous statement suggested that the players attitudes were the reason that we were losing ground. That being the case and that we cant change their contracts to a "pay as you win" basis means that the only things that can change their attitudes for the rest of this season is a) personal professional pride or b) better man-management from those tasked with that function. a) doesnt seem like happening, neither does b) to be fair. Changing the management may NOT be the right answer -however, it could be the breath of fresh air that we need. Tactically WS has been very poor in the OF games (1st game aside) and to go to Pittodrie looking to "not lose" is not a good tactic either. As happened last season, we are starting to be found out. Also, if the players arent performing as they should..... should the management not also take responsibility for failing to motivate them in the appropriate manner ?

But given this was a debate about whether it be best to change the management at such a crucial stage of the season.... surely the above would actually ADVOCATE making a change. If the reason that we are starting to do so poorly is because players are not doing enough to earn their wages, and if we cant make playing personnel changes, then the only way that our season can be turned around is either a) those players change their attitudes (and there is no evidence this season to suggest they will) or b) make a managerial change and try to invoke a fear in the players as well as a new, fresher approach.

To be fair, most bears want a long Strachan stay too. They are a poor team and his signings have been poor for the most part. Sadly ours have too.