maineflyer

Fine news indeed, Sasa can hold his head up after the last couple of years of doing his talking on the park. It's a bit rough on the the guy though thast he has to talk to Martin Bain before he can secure his future. Still, sacrifices must be made and hardships endured.

I wish I could believe that but it looks more likely that they'll just keep on extending their influence and keep on getting away with the same things we are pillaried for. Change seldon happens spontaneously. It normally requires a catalyst. we appear to have none.

You can blame UEFA for naivity but little else. If only one side of the argument is being put forward, UEFA can only act upon the information to hand. Rangers is isolated and fast becoming reviled across the spectrum of society. There is no "we" here, only one person is responsible for this situation. Our complicity lies in our tolerance and apathy towards this chairman.

Opinion? You mean he didn't actually know?

You may very well choose to disagree but I think you are being way too optimistic about the RST membership. There was no always and there was no steadily - or at least there wasn't when I asked for specific information about membership numbers and retention rates. The truth is the RST was in decline before the resignation debacle and to believe a significant part of the membership weren't disenfranchised by TBB affair only reveals the lack of perspective that infected the RST by that time. Perhaps if every dissenting voice hadn't been summarily banned from FF, you might have been more aware of the actual depth of feeling. As for "the organisation may have done a bit more", I presume you mean a bit more than nothing at all?

Oh come on, the club has made up worse than that. With Murray's record, I wouldn't give a moonbeam for "pretty sure".

I'll go further and say that certain elements of the RST were almost certainly and knowingly complicit in this "game". This was the single act of treachery that killed the RST stone dead, in which condition it remains today.

It's becoming circular but I'm not denying any ban. I'm saying there is no evidence of a ban and there should be if it exists. I personally don't give a monkeys about the song but I do about the dishonesty and manipulative tactics of a chairman who has been allowed to get away with too much and for far too long. If you have been party to information that is obviously too privileged for the likes of me, was the tune specifically and unambiguously banned and by what means were grown men persuaded to believe such arrant nonsense.

Murray has allowed himself to be played like a fiddle and all his financial power will do little good while brawling in the gutter. He has alienated and divided a significant part of the support, compromised even old stalwarts like Smith, subjected himself and the club to ridicule in the media and the football community, and reduced the morale of a great football club and national institution to its lowest ebb. I can see no redemption for him or our club while he remains. He is quite simply incompetent.

Frankie, you can thank me for whatever you like but I've never pretended to have any evidence. I'm simply challenging the suppositions and conclusions that seem to have taken the place of evidence. While you might regard "goes without saying" as sufficient test of the fact, I'm less easily convinced. All you say may be correct but if this is a UEFA ban then it is applied exclusively to Rangers without any sign of enforcement that I can see. If UEFA fined Rangers for discriminatory chanting and the punishment specifically included banning TBB - words and tune - why did Rangers not simply publish this UEFA directive verbatim on the official website? I understand completely that the UEFA charge included a judgement that TBB formed part of the discriminatory behaviour - what I'm less certain of is that a ban on TBB - words and tune - was part of the actual UEFA punishment. Is the ban mandatory and specific from UEFA - or voluntary and general from Rangers? If UEFA, is it European games or all games? Why words AND tune? Why are similar words and identical tune apparently allowed to be used by fans of other clubs - at Ibrox and elsewhere? To say that the situation lacks both clarity and resolution would be an understatement. I'd like the wool removed from the eyes of the Rangers support and I would like Murray to do the removing.

If he defended the club the way he defends himself, he would have my support. If he devoted less of his time to eroding and sanitizing our proud heritage, he would have my support. But he doesn't. I cannot imagine a Rangers chairman who is more out of touch with his own club and who has condemned and persecuted with so little genuine cause than David Murray. I am proud of all the many good things at this club, Murray is obsessively embarrassed by the shadows he sees in every corner, most of which have been put there by those who would willingly do harm to Rangers. He will never see it but he is actually a large part of the problem that continually weighs down my club. He cries wolf too often to be taken seriously now the problem has presented itself at his own door. I would love to think he could recover the damage he has done but I really believe it is much too late for him and the sooner he does himself and the club a favour by selling up, the better for all.

a. How right you are. It MAY have been more serious. My point is we will never know, and we should know - since we are the people this so-called ban is directed at. b. No one is being asked to condone TBB, least of all by me. My point isn't about the desirability or otherwise of the song, it's about the club treating its supporters openly with honesty.

The evidence is NOT clear. If it is then show it to me but don't confuse punishment for disciminatory singing with the ban of a specific song - words and tune. I got fined for speeding a few months ago but I didn't get banned from driving. I agree with you that the song was banned by the club but that is hardly the same thing as the club claiming that the song - words and tune - was banned by UEFA. That appears to be the club's stated position but where is the evidence of this? You would have thought the club would have been only too keen to publicise that specific UEFA directive rather than conduct quasi-clandestine meetings with club-selected individuals who were then apparently asked to mind their P's and Q's. Following the meeting, I seem to remember one Mr Dingwall being especially verbose about what had been banned but surprisingly short on detail about the source of this ban. If you're saying it is a Murray ban then I can accept that. If you're saying it is a UEFA ban then I'll believe it when I see the evidence. I'm perfectly happy to accept this is the case, just mystified why it has never been clearly demonstrated. I still feel Murray overstepped the mark and had to massage the situation to save face. It simply makes no sense otherwise. For all your protestations Frankie, if I'm wrong then show me the evidence. If you can't then stop doing Murray's job for him. And since you talk about doing more digging, you obviously don't have any evidence of a UEFA ban. Too many meetings have taken place with Murray that so-called fans' representatives have then been unable to comment upon freely afterwards. This only emphasises the fact that Murray seeks to manipulate rather than communicate, and brings into sharp question whose purpose these representatives actually served.

All you're doing is dancing around the same bonfire Frankie. You've just used a lot of words to say nothing at all and the complexity is all yours. My position is really very simple. If there is a ban, where is the evidence? If there is evidence, why isn't it available to all? Whose ban is it and what are the details? If certain priveleged individuals saw something, what did they see and why haven't they clarified this beyond doubt? Why were minority groups like RST/FFchosen by Murray to represent the wider support in this matter? (perhaps herein lies the most revealing aspect of the entire issue) There should be no need for all the conjecture and interpretation that continues to surround this issue. The fact there there is only confirms that the truth is still beyond our grasp. If another version does emerge, it is this continuing uncertainty that will provide the platform to have it banned as well - whatever a ban actually means in the very confusing world of Rangers FC.

Certain questions keep returning to me. If a UEFA ban (specifically identifying TBB - words and tune) actually exists, why didn't UEFA make it public? If it actually exists and for some strange reason UEFA only made their judgement known to Rangers, why haven't Rangers put this in the public domain? Since Rangers have certainly been asked to do so, why have Rangers chosen to keep the evidence of a UEFA ban secret, since that is effectively what they have done? Am I the only one who sees the absurdity and sheer unbelievability of this situation, After all this time, why are we still talking about knowing someone who in turn heard of someone else who had "seen" this mysterious document? I'm afraid this really just isn't credible, any more than the pixies at the bottom of my garden are credible. I see no alternative than to see this for the fudge it undoubtedly is. I believe Murray had his usual knee-jerk reaction to the UEFA situation and tried to embellish things by persuading certain RST/FF people that it was real. His purpose here was to use the RST/FF network to bolster and spread his message. Murray noted the UEFA focus on TBB and decided it had to go, as much because it was symbolic of the entrenched attitude he had already been trying to eradicate. He believe the media message and that was his biggest mistake. Whether the RST?FF folks were in any way complicit in the subterfuge is another matter but I believe Murray misread the situation and overstated the UEFA position - now he either admits his gaffe and completely loses face, or he buries it and waits for the passage of time to do its job. Frankie talks about doing some digging but bigger shovels than Frankie can wield have already dug there. nothing will be found. Whatever your stance on Murray, ask yourself if its likely in such an emotive subject that the evidence would not have been flaunted, rather than buried? Nope, I don't either.

Everyone has his view. Mine is that McCoist will fail badly as Rangers manager and I will be heartbroken to see a great Rangers icon sink out of sight. I saw it happen with Greigy and it's a hell of a thing.

Aw no. I've just posted the opposite after seeing photo's of the troops. I wasn't there and I guess I should have known Rangers would fukk it up. That'll teach me for lapsing into optimism.

......... when I saw photographs of the troops out on the Ibrox turf today. It looked like everything I associate with Rangers of old. The faces of those soldiers said it all and to see them wearing Rangers scarves and waving a Union flag hinted at the unity and pride in our country that we used to stand for, before people started telling us that we were the problem and before some of us started believing it. Man, I wish I could have been there today to take part in that wonderful event. If we can get it so right, why the hell do we keep on getting it wrong so often and so easily. If anyone's wants a swatch at the photo's, they're over on the Vanguardbears site.

That's another debate ... I was just pasing opinion on Walter. Whoever he is, the next guy will have his own job to do .... or at least Murray's.

I used to take Walter seriously, really admired him as a person. Since he came back it's all gone south and tbo I now wish he would just leave and make way for a more credible manager. Even the one thing I never thought I would doubt, that Walter was a real old-school Rangers man, has been shot to pieces with his recent appetite for abusing decent fans by spouting shyte in public. He would be better advised to build some bridges with the support.

I wouldn't argue with a word of what you say but if there is such pointed dishonesty and inconsistency amongst our politicians, police and football authorities, how will real racism ever be rooted out. Those who should be doing so seem to spend most of their time pouring their own credibility down the toilet. You're right though - if they dealt with the scourge of real racism they would have less time to invent and pursue cases of pseudo-racism against the like of you and me.

Actually, they interpret the law and then seek to enforce it. As we have all seen time after time, their enforcement can be less than consistent and their interpretation can verge on the bizarre.

Got the addresses and asked all the questions. Want to take aguess how much I achieved? No, you already know the answer. And you were part of the RST that could answer the questions either so I doubt if you have any more evidence than I do that any ban from any authority has ever existed. I read and hear lots of people going on about TBB being banned but I've never once found anyone other than Mark Dingwall actually put in writing that he KNEW the song had been banned. Of course, he has studiously refused to make any evidence available. Strange that. I don't know there ISN'T a ban and as far as I can see, no one else knows for sure that there IS a ban. What a strange situation to be in. But entirely in keeping with David Murray's methods.

An utterly pointless initiative. We all know that racism or whatever other label is being bandied about will be defined only in terms of the self-interest of the accuser. Racism in this challenged wee country is an entirely fluid matter. No one in authority can or will give a workable definition of what is racist or what is acceptable - but they will all rush to congratulate those who make the right political noises, irrespective of anything being achieved. The entire affair is an embarrassing shambles.

Gentleman's agreement? Have gentlemen been hiding at the SFA? If so, they've kept themselves well hidden.