Super_Ally

The mental sunday coupon didn't come off. 10/14. Lyon getting papped at home was shocking! Arsenal, Brentford, Scunthorpe. May as well say, it'll get bust anyway.

I've never re-watched it either. Not a sado-masochist. Recent comments were getting to me though and had to have a rant. Whilst Smith's time is probably up, that doesn't mean people can make ridiculous claims about his achievements.

In light of recent results, Walter Smith, his tactics, his choice of formation and his negative outlook has come under increasing scrutiny. We are all hurting over a hugely disappointing weekend and it has lead to many questions and accusations rightly being levelled at Walter Smith. Less fans than ever before are convinced that the old campaigner has any answers. But where does this accusation of bottling the UEFA Cup Final come from? Is there any basis in fact for this argument? Should Smith have ditched the tactics time and again served him so well and saw his team oust teams of arguably superior quality? Should he have thrown caution to the wind, opened up our team and attacked Zenit from the first whistle? This same side that beat Bayern Munich by an astounding 5 goals to 1 on aggregate. Whilst many are angry that we did not try to win the game by setting out and attacking team from the start, I would argue the reverse was true. If we had completely changed our game plan, the tactics which saw us oust Fiorentina, Sporting Lisbon, Werder Bremen and Panathinaikos in the previous rounds, we would have left ourselves vulnerable to the talents of Arshavin, Tymoschuk and co. Playing a defensive line up aimed at stifling and containing Zenit and hitting them on the break was arguably Smith way of setting out his stall to win the game. We could have gone for the jugular from the first minute and been on the end of a 4-0 humiliation like the mighty Bayern Munich suffered in the Semi-Final second leg. Of course that is mere speculation. But when a team built on defensive strength, McGregor(or Alexander), Cuellar, Weir, Broadfoot and Papac conceded just 2 goals in 8 games on our way to the final. Whilst some may point to the fact that we only scored 5 in these same games that merely goes to strengthen my point and Smith�s case for the defence. If you don�t concede you can�t be beaten. Sure we needed penalties to eventually see of Fiorentina, but for the past few seasons they have been competing at the very top of Serie A and in that same season deposed the Rossoneri from the Champions League places. Whilst many fans contest is a one off game, a final and we should just go for it, are they right if it reduces our chances of winning the match? Sure, in hindsight they can claim to be correct because we did not win. That does not mean that Smith�s tactics, which proved so effective throughout the rest of our European competition were wrong. A number of factors conspired against us going into that final. The attitude of Cousin, costing himself a place in the final day squad. Our fixture backlog throughout the entire season, the number of games played in such a short space of time going into the final was unprecedented. Injuries to key players made our plight even more difficult. At the end of the day though, that is the nature of the game and you cannot fall back on these excuses. Many fans are frustrated. They feel Smith cost them the opportunity of European Silverware. I just don�t think that argument stands up to scrutiny. I don�t want to see our team attacking recklessly, just for the sake of attacking. I do not want to see us battered in the same manner that a Munich team blessed with the quality of Franck Ribery and other such stars were so easily despatched. I want us to play the game that gives us the best chance of victory. Playing to our strength, keeping the game tight and looking to hurt them on the break with the likes of Darcheville, Davis was the correct way forward. That does not excuse Smith negativity in playing a defensive 4-5-1 against teams who are not blessed with a greater wealth of talent. I am appalled at the decision to play in such a defensive, scared to get beat, too scared to try and win manner against your Aberdeen�s and Celtic�s. But let�s not tarnish Smith�s achievements in Europe of last season through an agenda and weak comparison with the dregs of Scottish football and one of the most impressive teams in European competition of the last 2 seasons. A team who went on to handily beat English, European and World Champions Man Utd. no less!

Afraid of the consequences of losing to them.

Taking one for the team. :devil:

Is it not four too many, who've accidently turned up for a Scotland get together rather than a Eire squad?

No chance of Celtic dropping points at Tannadice after the morale boost they've jsut had. In any case Levein will be his usual smiles and giggles when Celtic win with some intervention from the officials. At least Berra isn't at Hearts to give our defence a hard time from set peices again. 3 points or it's season over realistically.

Never was that good and his supposed quality was exagerrated by the fact that he was the best player in a very poor team. His abilities are not complimented in the Scottish game.

Whether one or other is worse is neither here nor there. Ronaldo rightly gets lambasted in the media for his antics. Gerrard's mostly sneak through under the radar apart from more recently the odd fan on forums mentioning and wondering why it is never spoken of in the press. That's the reason I may appear to be more annoyed at Gerrard for it, because it is just ignored. He may not be the worst, but he is up there, and until people stop turning a blind eye it will continue to irk me. Anyway, I think Pedersen now holds the title of worst diver ever anyway.

I don't think you'll find many sympathetic to you view point. Whilst we are in a position to win the league (a plus I guess) recent results, performances and seasons suggest that it is less liekly unless we start to do something different.

You'll notice I agree we are improved from PLG. Just not improved enough. I myself am unsure if now is the time to change. But it is not good enough. As I have said elsewhere, the right change (not necessarily of management) could bring home the title.

Smith improved upon the PLG era in terms of results if not absolute position. You argued that Norris had twisted your words. You said we were at the top again, well above the non-OF. Much as PLG was a failure, he had us in the same position. And we still aren't top. I dont see how your words were twisted. I just think in this case you were wrong. No shame in admitting to it on occassion.

This what I was failing to say.

Sorry that read badly. I was saying I didn't see how Norris had twisted your point. We might be nearer the top of Scottish football than PLG. But we're not at the top.

I'm not sure how, in that case, your point was twisted? I don't enjoy wallowing in negativity and at times a little positivity and realism is a breath of fresh air. I do think you need to think through your points and reasons for positivity though, rather than just blind faith. Of course we can still win the league. Whether or not we will is another matter. It needs a change. A change of attitude from the players, a change of attitiude from the management or if is at appears these continue to elude us a change of management. All is not lost, but that is only the case if we recognise we need to do something different to ensure that winning this title is a reality and not just a possibility.

As you say, it's a moot point, the change will not happen. I am undecided if it would be a good idea when we are still in the title race. I understand why there are calls for change, but I am undecided if change now would be beneficial. Long term change must/will happen. But short term, it may make the difference, it may cost us the league.

To be fair I don't think it is solely a knee-jerk reaction. There were many who wanted him out before. The defeat at the weekend merely strengthens their point.

It made me laugh. I often hit that wee button instead of quoting someone and saying lol. When you post something funny or interesting i'll do the same. :devil:

WOnt be a popular example, but Roy Keane was always barking at team mates.

IMO Bougherra is the only candidate.

Unfortunately not every post on a forum like this brings something new. I do think though, that when there are hyperbolic reactions a dose of realism is a necessary thing: It was a better man than me that said: I'm not saying there are not huge issues at the club. The fact that the we faces these issues in the here and now means they are the most pressing and lead people to make claims that this is the worst Rangers team ever, or the worst Celtic team ever and we should easily be outstripping them (this isn't even the worst Rangers team of the last 3 years, never mind any other era people might wish to use). I, like you, like Craig and like Cal am absolutely fuming at the gutless display at the weekend. But exagerrating the gravity of the situation does not help either. Only when we have a realistic and objective view point of the current situation can we hope to rectify and improve upon it. Yes it is shit. But we there are some positives, if we can hand on them. We have the nucleus of a good team. We need a manger capable of complimenting the players we do have with the right tactics and formations. Smith does not appear to be that man (my debates with yourself where not whether that was the case, but more the again almost extreme view point that there were no positives to be seen).

Good post Cal, don't agree with everything 100% but you make some good points. I dont think he's trying to address particular problems or expending words because he likes the pretty patterns they make on his screen, though I do not inted to speak for him. What I would say, from my p.o.v. is that it agains brings a dose of reality to the situation at hand. Losing to Celtic is not acceptable it never is. But losing to them does not make us awful, does not make us a million miles behind them. And I would question whether these two sides are the worst in recent memory. When we put out our first XI, it is arguable stronger than the one that got to a European final last year. What yardstick do you use to mesure the teams quality. Arguably, with the right tactcis and formation, i.e a more attacking outlook, we could have a fairly decent team on our hands. Our major problems right now is a negative manager with a weak squad. look what a Bougherra injury does to us.

Rightly or wrongly, if he managed to win the title, he will keep his job. A Championship winning manager will not get the boot. I am unsure whether or not he would walk away.

The problem with Martinez or Matteo, is that they unlikley to know anything about the Scottish game, despite what Pete writes PLG was clueless when he came here and wasn't prepared. We would need to avoid that scenario again. A Scottish assistant perhaps?

AC Milan winning. Had a look at them, but bottled it in the end. Always a kick in the teeth when that happens. No doubt the team I took instead gets beat now.