Bears being arrested for singing Fathers Advice

[calscot 0]

Bow to the mock offended brigade then?

 

Incredibly fallacious reply. You're saying we should not sing Rangers songs but sing about murdering gangs so as not to look like we're bowing to people? How about just being half decent and reasonably sane?

[der Berliner 3,245]

People can sing whatever they want nigh 24/7. If certain places are excempt from that, it does not exactly mean that freedom of speech is at risk. People don't want you to sing along et al in an Opera House, enter pubs while clad in football shirt, smoke in a super market, or shout about wildly in a manner that would frighten others. According to the rules given by the landlord, owner, governing authority, you name it. By buying tickets to e.g. a football game or concert, you usually by default agree to the rules of that club, company and/or place. If you violate these rules, you could face expulsion or even charges. These are rules we all in general agree to, and it is no different in football grounds.

Consequently, if people violate e.g. the Offensive Behaviour Bill in one way or another, they have agreed (by entering the ground) that the rules can be used and held up against them, that their right of freedom of speech is partly diminished. Singing offensive songs (no matter who does that) falls under that rule and while we can all lament about the way said bill is being applied, there is no wrongdoing by the police et al here.

 

BTW, I for one rather have the police target certain individuals right now (and they have, according to FF, also charged Yahoos of their Green Brigade) than the SPFL and certain media sections target Rangers FC over this.

 

That said, the Police et al should get together with fans and tell them what songs / chants are deemed offensive or are forbidden (pending on the content), rather than apply the Bill as the officer sees fit on the day.

 

As for the "FTP and the Vatican" add ons, quite some time* ago an FFer put it quite expressivly like this and I agree (even though our "Ultras" et al are usually no longer drunk, but stubborn to the core):

How hard is it to drop the add-ons ffs! the songs are perfectly fine without them!

Obviously, it's real hard if you're a cerebrally-challenged p*sspot with more beer inside you than you're man enough to hold. Why don't we go back to the old days and leave the weans at home. That's anyone with a mental age under 5 - which would presumably include everyone singing on that video.

 

*Sadly, enough, after our first goal on Sunday, some Bears went rather mental and gave the songs the same unwanted laldly.

[Super_Ally 0]

At the same time SA all of those things were treated with the disdain they deserved by all normal people. We'll never stop some people being obsessed with Rangers, but most of the things you mentioned were rightly ridiculed, no one took them seriously. That's a big jump from songs that denigrate someone else's culture or religion or show support for murder gangs, you can see the difference right?

 

Where do our media and politicians sit in our society. The policy makers and key influencer? Jack McConnel and Alex Salmond. Are these the "normal" people you refer to. Would normal people give 3 names or the leading catholic spokespeople in Scotland a platform.

 

Should TFS have been banned or dismissed as banter?

 

Edit: I've said this recently and I stand by it. The Rangers support are fighting the wrong fight.

 

We are still defending ourselves on a case by case basis. Song by son. Incident by incident. What we really need to do is challenge the landscape of the entire battle. Change what we are arguing over and who are the final arbiters and where and how they set their line in the sand.

 

It should not be down to trial by tv and radio phone in shows with Celtic friendly media an politicians setting the agenda and the Catholic bigots in their church being given freedom to spout their shite.

 

The whole sectarian industry is a sham and that is what we should be challenging. Not whether TFS, TBB or Follow Follow is sectarian.

 

As long as we continue to fight their battle we will lose.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Super_Ally

[Tumshie RFC 0]

It would surprise me if they could get a conviction for the Bobby Sands line.

 

I'd imagine they would have a better chance of securing a conviction for the YCV line in the song.

 

Regardless it's an absolute scandal. You would think the coppers would have better things to do with their team than getting up at the crack of dawn to raid a teenagers house. I'd be hopeful that they would be breaking down the doors of almost all the away grounds we have visited this season as their fans seem to take great delight in the use of the H word.

[calscot 0]

Where do our media and politicians sit in our society. The policy makers and key influencer? Jack McConnel and Alex Salmond. Are these the "normal" people you refer to. Would normal people give 3 names or the leading catholic spokespeople in Scotland a platform.

 

Should TFS have been banned or dismissed as banter?

 

Is it not harder to refute our detractors when a big chunk of what they say is either true or at least superficially true? Those you mention are seen to be "normal" by the population at large and that will continue as long as we act anything like the nutters they say we are.

 

Most people don't understand this stuff so when we're vilified in the press for singing unnamed "sectarian" songs, people believe it. The problem is that we have no defence as we actually do sing songs that can be interpreted as sectarian and quite a bit IS overtly sectarian. If we cleaned up our act there would be no problem in suing these guys into submission. When they lose court case after court case, the general population will get the drift and the payouts they will have to make will be a deterrent for the future.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Where do our media and politicians sit in our society. The policy makers and key influencer? Jack McConnel and Alex Salmond. Are these the "normal" people you refer to. Would normal people give 3 names or the leading catholic spokespeople in Scotland a platform.

 

Should TFS have been banned or dismissed as banter?

 

Edit: I've said this recently and I stand by it. The Rangers support are fighting the wrong fight.

 

We are still defending ourselves on a case by case basis. Song by son. Incident by incident. What we really need to do is challenge the landscape of the entire battle. Change what we are arguing over and who are the final arbiters and where and how they set their line in the sand.

 

It should not be down to trial by tv and radio phone in shows with Celtic friendly media an politicians setting the agenda and the Catholic bigots in their church being given freedom to spout their shite.

 

The whole sectarian industry is a sham and that is what we should be challenging. Not whether TFS, TBB or Follow Follow is sectarian.

 

As long as we continue to fight their battle we will lose.

 

 

Alternatively, we stop any reference to Popes, F***ians or terrorist organisations - none of which has any place at a football match anyway - or at any celebration of Protestant culture, come to that. Removal of that stuff removes any weapon from the hands of our opponents.

 

As for the argument that "they'll just come after Penny Arcade etc". Well, let them.

The only reason anybody gives any credence to their claims about Penny Arcade etc is because we do sing sectarian and terrorist glorifying stuff as well. Therefore, the average citizen can always be forgiven for thinking that there may be something in the Tims claims about the normal songs as well - even when there clearly isn't.

 

Take away any sectarian stuff and their claims will be exposed for what they are.

[amms 0]

Where do our media and politicians sit in our society. The policy makers and key influencer? Jack McConnel and Alex Salmond. Are these the "normal" people you refer to. Would normal people give 3 names or the leading catholic spokespeople in Scotland a platform.

 

Should TFS have been banned or dismissed as banter?

 

Edit: I've said this recently and I stand by it. The Rangers support are fighting the wrong fight.

 

We are still defending ourselves on a case by case basis. Song by son. Incident by incident. What we really need to do is challenge the landscape of the entire battle. Change what we are arguing over and who are the final arbiters and where and how they set their line in the sand.

 

It should not be down to trial by tv and radio phone in shows with Celtic friendly media an politicians setting the agenda and the Catholic bigots in their church being given freedom to spout their shite.

 

The whole sectarian industry is a sham and that is what we should be challenging. Not whether TFS, TBB or Follow Follow is sectarian.

 

As long as we continue to fight their battle we will lose.

 

Interesting. I don't feel I'm in a 'battle', I don't feel my culture is under any threat. My culture doesn't include glorifying terrorists or razor gangs or denigrating someone who lives in Rome or Ireland. If those types of songs upset some people it's no skin off my nose because they upset me too. So i'm not sure what side of this 'battle' that puts me on then.

 

Politicians are elected, whether you support them or not is moot, enough people do so it's counter-productive to ignore or dismiss them. I'm not sure the Catholic church has actually been all that vocal in all this, I also think you put far too much importance on its words when they are spoken. Most people aren't RC, even the ones who are seem to pay little more than lip service to most of what their church 'teaches'.

 

To address your specific point about 'Why don't You Go Home' song. I think it was 'banter' in the context it first came from. In Glasgow and surrounds it was clearly a riposte to their faux Oirishness. But, and this is our problem, we started to sing it at every game, against Kilmarnock and Hearts and Inverness and suddenly the riposte changes meaning. Instead of mocking the green laden plastic Paddies in front of us it starts to sound like something a little more sinister when the people opposite you aren't dressed like attendees at a St Patrick's Day parade. Then the unhinged lunatic fringe in our support create verses for it which are entirely unambiguous and think recording them and posting it on You-Tube for all to see is a good idea. So that's how the narrative changes, that's how it goes from 'banter' to serious offence in a few short moves.

I'd also say that in Ireland the 'famine' is an altogether more serious topic. As a nation they're not ready for joking about it or mocking it. We can argue about how healthy that is for them as a nation if you want but it's irrelevant as we need to deal with the reality of the here and now. The truth is Irish people were both horrified and perplexed that a group of Scottish football supporters would see that as a suitable topic to chant about on a weekly basis. They still view the 'famine' in the same way Armenians view Turkey's alleged genocide in WW1, it's not something to laugh about.

 

So ultimately we've only ourselves to blame for this, had the chant been kept for Celtic matches only and no 'extra verses' created we were on solid ground.

[Bluedell 5,329]

Then the unhinged lunatic fringe in our support create verses for it which are entirely unambiguous and think recording them and posting it on You-Tube for all to see is a good idea.

 

Different song that was never sung at a Rangers game,

 

The truth is Irish people were both horrified and perplexed that a group of Scottish football supporters would see that as a suitable topic to chant about on a weekly basis. They still view the 'famine' in the same way Armenians view Turkey's alleged genocide in WW1, it's not something to laugh about. .

 

That argument falls down when you look at the Celtic fans romanticising the famine every week. If it's acceptable for Scottish Celtic fans to sing about it every week then it's also acceptable for Rangers fans to take the piss out of them for doing so.

 

Nobody was laughing at the famine. they were laughing at the Celtic fans for pretending they were Irish and for singing about the famine when they are Scottish.

 

So ultimately we've only ourselves to blame for this, had the chant been kept for Celtic matches only and no 'extra verses' created we were on solid ground.

They would have still used the same arguments and been successful. It was irrelevant whether we only sung it Celtic fans or everyone. The spin would have still been put on it and accepted by all non-bears and many of our own support as well.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Bluedell

[Super_Ally 0]

amms, at least twice you make mention to the idea that this is the reality we find ourselves in and so we must fall into line.

 

I still disagree. As is rightly pointed out corrupt politicians and a biased media set the agenda and the rules. But I don't think we have to just sit back and go that's the status quo we must march to their tune.

 

We as a support must find a way to have a day in the agenda being set so it is not all one sided.

 

I don't feel my "culture" is under threat. I feel my right to enjoy the football, to engage in banter, to have fun and express myself is under threat. There is a battle whether people want to acknowledge it or not.

 

I'm not overly fucked about political or terrorist songs. I don't care about TFS.

 

I care about what they represent. They are attacking any expression of support, and chance of creating atmosphere at Ibrox.

 

BD as torn your argument on TFS to shreds. There was nothing wrong with that song but the media, politicians etc ensure it was outlawed. You can claim that "normal" people dismissed the other attacks mentioned but the arguments persist and once they have removed the easier targets they won't be slow in going after anything else they don't like. They'll be back for Penny Arcade and anything else.

 

There is a clear and obvious propaganda war against anything we do and to ignore that is foolhardy.

[Crimson Dynamo 128]

Why do we have to sing about Celtic at all?

 

Can we not just sing about Rangers