maineflyer

Anyone like chestnuts, especially old ones? I've got one here and I think it's about time it was dealt with properly. It's called The Billy Boys. I recently wrote elsewhere........ For me, the so-called banning of TBB will always be symbolic of two things... 1. The contrived witch hunt against the Rangers community. 2. The disgraceful capitulation of a weak and misguided club leadership. Until and unless it returns, there will continue to be a wrong that needs to be righted. This is a truly seminal issue and must be addressed. I believe this to be true and that there are more important issues involved than will ever be resolved by a purely semantic analysis. I'd like to raise some with the rest of our Gersnet members. It's my opinion that we need to get over this hurdle and be able to sing this song again, even if it is with slightly modified words. However, rather than regurgitate what I've said many times already, I thought I would share the thoughts of another very commited bear who made a project of trying to uncover the well-concealed truth of this matter. He posted the following on another site some time ago ............ apologies, it seems this will cover about three different posts. Right folks, I'll give you my views on things and also feed you some info that I have received so far, I would have preferred to held this info back until further down the line but on second thoughts, given the growing unrest among the support re banned songs/banners etc, i think some of it should be known now so that people can use it as basic facts in the matter. At this point I'd advise you to put the kettle as you are in for a long read ;D Firstly, my views on the (alleged) banning of TBB in all shape and form...... In the aftermath of the Osasuna farce, a meeting was held at Ibrox, in attendance were RST, RSA, and other various bears including GMS. The only person I know of that was there representing the club was Martin Bain. In the course of this meeting (and this info came from GMS), Martin Bain (allegedly) held up and waved about a sheet of paper saying that he had received a letter from UEFA stating that TBB has been banned in all forms including the tune at any game that Rangers are involved in (including games under the jurisdiction of the SFA/SPL). I asked GMS if any of the others at that meeting got to read the contents of the letter and the answer was NO. I also asked if any of the others present had requested or received a copy of this letter, again the answer was NO. Now letââ?¬â?¢s just think about this for a minute and ask some questions. Did the above actually happen as described by GMS? Or Did the club come out with a 'You scratch my back, and I'll scratch your back' attitude and in doing so, ask those present to spread it about that things have happened as described above? Not long after this, all the stuff started appearing about the new SPL/SFA regulations regarding 'Unacceptable Behaviour' that were soon going to be published. It was also being touted that there was going to be a 'banned' list of songs published. I then contacted GMS asking him if he knew of any Rangers friendly solicitors that would be prepared to start asking the club questions with regards to the way the fans were being treated by the club in general on the grounds of Human Rights. My request was completely ignored, he didn't even bother replying. It was at this point that the penny started dropping for me, I began to realise that certain people or certain organisations, despite what they claim, did not have the best interests of the Rangers support at heart. Certain people and groups were only out to feather their own nest or were only doing things for the kudos. At this point I'd like to state that at no point during my subsequent continued correspondence with the club have I challenged TBB (as we knew it) being banned. I know, like the majority of bears that the problem has only arisen through peoples ignorance / lack of knowledge / determination to twist historical facts to suit their own agenda, i.e. giving the perception to the general public that when Rangers fans sing the word '******' they actually mean 'Catholics'. However, I am one of the ones that are prepared to move with the times a bit and accept that there is no longer any place for singing the line 'Up to our knees in ****** blood'. What I have been challenging the club on is the alleged banning in all forms. I am currently trying to get the club to state that the original song (We are the people), which was later ba*tardised to become TBB, is not banned at Ibrox or considered offensive by Rangers and as such shouldn't be sung anywhere. I am also challenging the club on the general welfare of the paying customers (lets face it thatââ?¬â?¢s what we are) being neglected by Rangers as they continually allow customers to be harassed and bullied by Rock Steady or Strathclyde Police without any avenue of recourse. Whilst in the confines of Ibrox, as paying customers, Rangers have a 'Duty of care' towards our welfare but it would seem that they are not interested. -------------------- So moving onto my correspondence with the club and the SFA. I shall post the relevant questions that I have put forward, list the response and analyse. The following snippets are excerpts from the letters received by me as I have not yet scanned these letters onto my computer (scanner is fu*ked). I will at some point in the future scan all documentation for viewing, in the meantime you are just going to have to trust me, if in doubt Sentry and PB can vouch for me just now. I sent off a letter to both Rangers and the SFA at the same time way back in August 07. In my letter to the SFA I asked them to clarify if TBB has been banned by UEFA in all forms in Scotland (as being suggested by Rangers), pointing out that others Scottish teams regularly sing their own versions, some even more offensive than ours. I also asked them if the SFA find the original song (We are the people) which does not contain any offensive lyrics to be offensive, stating that Rangers are claiming that it is the responsibility of the SFA to determine this. In my first letter to Kenny Scott my initial questions were as follows...... 1. Please state clearly (including justification) which songs / chants, normally sung by Rangers fans, are now deemed unacceptable at football stadia throughout Scotland under the SFA / SPL regulations? 2. Please state clearly (including justification) which flags / banners, normally displayed by Rangers fans are now deemed unacceptable at football stadia throughout Scotland under the SFA / SPL regulations? His response was...... ââ?¬Å?1. Rangers Football Club appreciate the difficulties encountered by supporters in trying to understand what is and what is not acceptable under the new guidelines. Despite this however the club is not in a position to state unequivocally which songs and chants are acceptable and which are unacceptable. What we would like to point out is that the Club policy is and will remain that we prefer supporters to sing songs about Rangers Football Club and about football in general. It is not only what the Club thinks is acceptable or unacceptable that matters anymore. Given the interest of UEFA and the SPL in the behaviour of our supporters at games both at Ibrox Stadium and away from home it is the view point of these and other objective observers which can bring the Club into difficulties. What Rangers Football Club would ask supporters is to think about what they are singing and what others may thing of particular songs. Where some people may consider it regrettable it is now the opinion of others which matters on the issue. 2. You also ask me to state clearly which flags and banners normally displayed by Rangers fans are now deemed unacceptable at football stadia throughout Scotland under the SFA/SPL regulations. There is nothing contained in these regulations which specifically relates to any particular type of flag or banner. It has long been the position that flags of any nationality which do not contain any added words or slogans which others may find offensive are allowed in stadia across Scotland. I see no reason why this should change in the future. If you have any difficulties regarding particular flags please do not hesitate to address your concerns to me in order that I am able to discuss the issue with you.ââ?¬Â He also went on to stateââ?¬Â¦.. ââ?¬Å?My final point relates to the final paragraph of your letter in which you indicate that Rangers Football Club have a duty to fully inform yourself and all other season ticket holders of said SPL Regulations. What I can tell you is thei Club more so than any other in Scotland I believe has fulfilled its obligation under the SPL Regulations regarding the issuing of statements and publication of such statements in all match day programmes and similar Club publications indicating that it will not tolerate any form of unacceptable conduct. In addition there has been widespread coverage of the new Regulations in the wider media and the subsequent discussion has been well documented. I do not believe the Club has anything further which it is required to do in regard to notification of supporters in respect of the new SPL Regulations.ââ?¬Â

I regularly travel on business in Europe, the Middle East and SE Asia and it seems everywhere I go I see sellick shirts hanging in airport shops. This is undoubtedly the Nike connection at play but isn't it ironic (or is it typical) that you can see the green and grey all over the world but you can't buy a Rangers top in your own back yard. Rangers, a club run by mental midgets whose business accumen is more often spoken about than seen in practise.

I think he looked at the near-universal discontent when he accepted the offer for Boyd and he backed off, finding another way to bridge the current cash gap. He looked at the likely impact on season ticket sales and saw the better part of valour was to stay his hand. IMO, the inevitable axe will fall in the summer, after season tickets have been taken up and a possible CL place secured. That really would be typical Murray. Of course, I'm no captain of industry, so what do I know?

A couple of weeks ago our finances were apparently such that we had to sell at least one of our more valuable players. Murray said it and called for the support to see reason in a changed financial reality. Even Walter Smith was persuaded to read in public from the Murray script. Hell, the whole world knew that we were in a perilous situation. Well we didn't sell so what happens now? Was Murray simply "at it" yet again or is there something he might now want to tell us about our finances. Should he come clean and explain the consequences of not meeting his own declared necessity of raising urgently needed funds? The apparent about-face and subsequent silence makes no sense. Either he was spinning to cover up his lack of judgement or, as a captain of industry, he should explain what happens now. Or does he only make annoucements in pursuit of his own personal interest?

Your first sentence poses a hell of a question for success-starved supporters and you do well to raise it. I'm not sure I have an entirely consistent stance on it but attractive football certainly suggests more talent than we have today and more talent generally wins more games. We have to continually remind ourselves not to settle for second best at this club. We haven't won over 100 trophies by having anything but the highest standards. Whether we always achieve them may be another matter but it seems to me we have built our success on a clear and fundamental determination to be the best. Think Bill Struth and it needs no further explanation. The people who own and run our club these days do not, in my opinion, have those same standards at heart and that is essentially why I believe they need to leave. With that in mind and from that perspective, the current team lacks a great deal. Width in midfield, attacking fullbacks, set piece options, goals from midfield or defence, etc, etc, we can all see the deficits. We need to win this title and enough ugly 1-0 wins will do it - but it's possible right now that we'll fall short again because we still have too many of the weaknesses we've already displayed against the likes of St Mirren and ICT. I'm continually torn between being desperate for the team on the park to win - and frustration that our player acquisition has been poor, we consistently play them out of position, adopt inappropriate tactics and generally present a disorganised approach at management level. If you didn't know better, you would think Walter was a new manager having to learn from his mistakes. As I've said elsewhere, our greatest hope at the moment comes from the fact that sellick are now showing the same weaknesses as us. But thinking the current Rangers squad is anything but well below the required standard is never going to solve our recent lack of success. What we need to do is stop going backwards and start improving. Which will require stronger corporate governance, more astute management of the playing side, and better players on the park. Unfortunately, right now, the first of these is holding us back and will continue to do so.

I'd just like to say that, despite the occasional Genghis Khan impersonations, I'm very much for freedom to post whatever and wherever we want - as long as it's genuine and appropriate. Scotzine's appearance here is neither in my opinion. That's why I never visit or post on sellick websites. You simply cannot consistently attack and ridicule Rangers on a public platform and then appear on numerous Rangers websites pretending to be Mr Evenhanded. Well you can but you shouldn't then be surprised at the outcome. I thought long and hard about copying that Scotzine article since everyone has the opportunity to visit that site if they wish and read it for themselves - even join and participate if that takes their fancy. However, sometimes slimeballs need a little helping hand to expose their true nature. I hope the forum didn't mind too much.

Here's one of the recent articles penned by our latest visitor from the dark side. It doesn't strike me as difficult to see that this sellick-supporting clown has no intention whatsoever of delivering the level playing field he pretends to present on Scotzine. Judge for yourself - I'm sure he won't mind me reproducing it here, friend of open debate that he is. We see the banners and the flags being flown at every game the Rangers fans go to. Rangers are the Quintessential British Team, according to their supporters and take pride in being a BRITISH club. However it seems that the Club’s hierarchy want to revel in being a Scottish club, only months after celebrating all things Ulster. So what is really going on at Ibrox? With this year being dubbed ‘The Year of Homecoming’ by the Scottish Government in a bid to boost Tourism in the country during a time of financial crisis, it is surprising that a club that celebrates its British-ness and its fans singing Rule Britannia and God Save the Queen should celebrate being Scottish. So can you be Scottish and British at the same time? Well officially yes, but given that Scotland has its own parliament, our own identity and a sheer hatred for the English when it comes to Footballing matters then I doubt we could be both. While the majority of Scottish Football supporters back the campaign Against a Team GB, those Rangers supporters still revel at singing British anthems even more so when they play their arch rivals Celtic who celebrate their Irish identity as much as Rangers celebrate their British identity. While Politics is not my area of expertise, it is a bit rich of the club to ask their fans to celebrate being Scottish given the fact they belt out songs glorifying the British Empire and sing a song - God Save the Queen - whose lyrics call the Rebellious Scots to be crushed. However is this day of celebration a Supporters group initiative or is it a Club initiative looking for some good PR? Well rumours persist that a PR company actually contacted the Scottish Executive in a bid to get their Day of Celebration backed by high fliers within the Scottish Government. However with the Government being run by the SNP, it would be a bit ridiculous that members of a Political Party that are bent on Scottish Independence, celebrate being Scottish at the ground of a club that oozes Unionism, Britishness and celebrates everything to do with the British Empire. Even a call from a couple of top officials at Rangers FC to the Scottish Executive was blanked. Is ‘Scotland Day’ a PR stunt? well coincidently it is around the same time as Rabbie Burns day - 25th January - which is a major Scottish event throughout the world. So jumping on the bandwagon of everything Scottish would be a good initiative wouldn’t it? Well given that only in September the Quintessential British Club held ‘Ulster Day’ to celebrate the club’s historical friendship with the British state. What’s next for Rangers? Holland Day, America Day, Oz Day? Given that the club has strong links with those countries as well, with some of their players & former players and fans citizens of those countries it would be safe to say that they would do these days also? Nah that would be silly wouldn’t it? And so the club selects days to celebrate the more important aspects of the club’s links. Ulster Day was promoted and celebrated to get as many Rangers fans from Northern Ireland over to the stadium in that day, as well as those fans who revel in backing the Pro-British movement in Northern Ireland. Waving Ulster flags, celebrating Ulster players who donned the Rangers strip etc. as well as waving Union Jacks it was all in a days work for the Quintessential British Club. But now they are going to be celebrating everything Scottish - playing bagpipe music, Scottish ditties over the tannoy system, everyone handed FREE mini Saltires to wave on cue and a card display that will probably display a massive Saltire also - all bought and paid for by Sir David Murray at a time when finances are tight and they have to sell one of their key players to balance the books. If Rangers are so proud of their Scottishness, why then at the UEFA Cup Final in Manchester did the majority of them wave Union Jacks and not the Saltire? Why not fly the Saltire and the Lion Rampant with pride rather than have mini Union Jacks all across the stadium. Why not tell the world - here is a Scottish club in a European Cup Final? Why not celebrate their Scottish Identity then? While Rangers celebrating being Scottish is not a crime, trying to pass yourself off as the Quintessential British Club and also passing yourself off as a club that revels in its Scottishness is a bit of a joke given the times we live in. Many Scots see themselves as Scottish and not British, especially the Football Fans who follow our National team. Even the voting in of the SNP at the last Election has shown that society is sick of the cronies of Labour and the Tories who try to govern Scotland from the confines of Westminster. While I don’t disagree with the club’s and the fans claim that Rangers are the Quintessential British Club, they certainly are not a club that revels in being Scottish. Is Flower of Scotland sung at Ibrox? Is Scotland the Brave? How many Union Jacks do you see compared to Saltires at Ibrox? How many Scotland tops do you see at Ibrox compared to England shirts? In all these questions it is never the Scottish side that wins, it is always the British or the ‘English’ aspect of the club that does. Although I class myself as being Scottish officially I am classed as British given that Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom/ Great Britain & Northern Ireland, as well as having a British Passport. But do we have a choice over this? No we don’t, the Passport is forced upon us and so is this false British Identity. So isn’t it about time Rangers as a club come out and pick a side? Celtic have been celebrating their Irish heritage for years and have been hated for it by the Rangers support and more or less every other club in Scotland, and not just because of footballing reasons. Likewise Rangers are hated for rubbing their Quintessential Britishness in the faces of their opponents. The same Britain that tried to kill off Scottish Culture once and for all after the Battle of Culloden in 1746, the same Britain that first introduced the Concentration Camps in South Africa interning the Boer population, the same Britain that massacred men, women and children across the world in the name of King/Queen & Country. The same Britain that revelled in war, invading countries and forcing their will on the citizens all in the name of the ‘Glorious Empire.’ The same Britain who after WW2 promised Palestine to the Arabs and the same Britain who promised Palestine to the Jews across Europe and the World who were persecuted by the Nazis and their allies. The same Britain that left Palestine in a state of turmoil, washing their hands of the matter only to see the conflict between the two peoples still raging on even to this day. Oh how we should all celebrate being British and wave the Union Jack - seen by many not only in Ireland, but also across the world as nothing more than a Butcher’s apron. Every club in Scottish Football is first and foremost a Scottish Club, they may have links to Northern Ireland or the Republic or even England etc. But they are all Scottish. If the FA thought of us as British then wouldn’t we have clubs in joint leagues? Would there be a huge uproar from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland about losing their identities at International Level so that we can have a Team GB if we classed ourselves as British? Of course not. When things go wrong with someone or something that is Scottish, Welsh or Irish - Britain is not mentioned yet when someone like Andy Murray progresses in a tennis competition or Chris Hoy wins a Gold Medal, its all about Britain and how glorious Britain is. This ‘country’ of Britain is still revelling in the British Empire mentality and while Rangers as a club and fan base also revel in it, its time they realised that the Empire didn’t care for anyone unless it benefited the Empire. Scotland was always a threat to them, Scotland was always a thorn in the side - even in the 1980s the Poll Tax protests in Scotland was a major thorn in Thatcher’s and Britain’s side and to this day the Tories have not won an election in Scotland due to the behaviour of their Quintessential British party against the Scots in the 1980’s. So while the Rangers fans wave their little Saltires and Lion Rampants, singing along to the Scottish ditties being blasted out of the Quintessential British Club’s tannoy system - every other club’s support in Scotland will be looking on with downright disgust at the claims that the club is celebrating being Scottish, rather than what it actually is - a PR stunt to get the media off the back of Sir David Murray during a time of financial crisis at the club, as well as the recent Crimewatch episode that branded a minority of Rangers fans thugs and hooligans. Would Scotland Day have happened if Rangers fans had not rioted in manchester? Would Scotland day have happened if Rangers were not looking into a financial blackhole? Would Scotland Day have happened if Sir David Murray had needed good PR after recent media attacks on him and the handling of the club’s finances? Rangers the Quintessential British Club - more like Rangers the Quintessential ‘We will do anything for good PR’ Club. Looks like you can take the tim out of the gutter but you can't take the gutter out of the tim.

Shroomz? Who's Shroomz? Never heard of him. We definitely need to win this league title and no one will party harder than me if we do. Personally, I think we may do it - not because we are doing much right but because sellick seem to be joining us in la la land.

I don't believe I ever said you didn't allow Rangers fans to comment on your site, although it's clear some of them are nothing of the sort. However, it's completely clear that you actively and routinely manipulate comment to establish an unambiguous anti-Rangers consensus. Your recent correspondence with admin on another Rangers site reveals your true colours and your feigned reasonableness and even-handed approach are as genuine as Paw broons teeth. If your website is such a paragon of fair play, why not just dedicate all of your time to that and the Linwood jewellry stall, and stop straying on to every Rangers site you can find. I know exactly what you are mate and what your game is.

Aw come on now, what's this irate stuff? When have I ever come across as irate about anything? I will say this though - let's count the winners at the finishing line, not half way through the race. I hope we win this title, we bloody well need to, but there are fundamental issues of leadership and piss-poor management at the club that need to be addressed and which I see no point papering over. If we win the treble I will still feel the same.

Maybe we've just been consistently and endlessly unlucky ......... or perhaps we all need to accept that Martin Bain is an incompetent arse who has cost this club millions over the years. He wouldn't last five minutes in my outfit, in fact he would never have found himself in such a position of responsibility in the first place. If anyone needs confirmation of the failure of Murray's leadership, they need only look at the appointment of Martin Bain as CEO of Rangers. I tell you folks, Bain position is so transparently unappropriate it is almost beyond comprehension. How did we ever slide so far?

You don't have to tell a player to "F off" in order to move him on. How many of the hundreds of transfers over the last month do you think were completed by telling the player to F off? Feigning optimism is one thing, gullibility is quite another. The fact is that over the last half dozen years or so, Rangers have taken on dud after dud and either ended up paying up outrageous contracts or clogging up the wage bill with malingerers living in an enturely unproductive comfort zone. Or are you about to announce your admiration for the contract negotiations of Martin Bain?

And you point is? perhaps you didn't realise that every player who moved between clubs around Europe during January was on a contract.

Phew? Hardly. Yet another window passes and the club is still hugely burdened by God knows how many duds who will never see first team action between now and the summer. It's great to keep our few decent players but why is it we can never offload our expensive dead wood?

Hate to see anyone fail to make it at Rangers but Charlie just wasn't up to the task and needs to go.

Perhaps........... Having tried and failed to sell Boyd....... Having seen the potential uproar if he was seen to dismantle the team by selling leading players at this stage of the season........ He opted for the only other option available......... Short term financial risk in the hope we win the title and qualify for the CL........ Followed by dismantling the team in the summer on the back of a title win and decent season ticket sales. Of course, if we now fail to win the league, he is on a very sticky wicket indeed.

Didn't get involved in any trouble, despite being goaded. What's the big deal? Oh yes, of course, we play sellick in two weeks and Flecky scares them shitless. How fukking predictable.

And....? You're overlooking the fact he had no knees first time round either. Wattie's no fool you know.

You're talking to the wrong mole mate. Walter is playing safe and bringing back Daniel Prodan

Biggordy, I think millions of people across the world place their hope in the new President, and why not. We all need hope. Even I have hope that one day Mr Murray will no longer be part of Rangers. However, where trust is concerned, Obama and Murray do have something in common. Neither has yet been able to demonstrate a basis for earning our trust. Admittedly, in Obama's case, he has only been in the job for twelve days.

Oh dear, this again. I thought I might just get through one transfer window without Alan Smith being touted.

"Decent" timposters eh? That's a new one on me. Either they are just intent on ingratiating themselves and using their allegiance as a means of achieving notoriety - or they are intent on making trouble, directly or indirectly. I think we need to be honest here. Is this or any other Rangers site going to be enhanced by sellick-minded members? Do we wish to boost our politically-correct credentials by accommodating those who do not wish us well? Are we a more balanced forum because we allow them to live amongst us? Or are we just kidding ourselves? Should we allow members to register and then simply sit in the background without posting - or should we follow the example of other places and cull lurkers who do not post for (say) a month? Unless people participate you run the risk of having large numbers of timposter sleepers from the other side. If they do participate, it becomes difficult for them to disguise their true identity - which Scotzine openly announces his 'tendencies' and goes through the pretence of asking for apparently benign information, ever trying to appear reasonable and gain a foothold. In my opinion, and it's only that, I would put every one of them to the sword at first sight. EDIT - NO personal details to be posted please.

Get real, Mendes will go if Bolton increase their offer and after selling Nolan they can certainly afford to. I hope i'm wrong but I fully expect Mendes is history.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that David Murray is a lying scheitdmeister and anyone who trusts his word must be deaf, blind and fukking stupid. As for the American African, I couldn't give a monkeys.

The word is obviously out on our very own false propheteer.