Sectarian Songs - Focus Group

[Bluedell 5,329]

To suggest there is an element of politics at play here is to state the obvious, that's what politicians do. But this head-in-the-sand why-always-us cry that goes up whenever we discuss this topic is wearisome. As far as I know no one else sings about the UVF or No Pope of Rome, so, you know, figure it out.

 

The Rangers fans did cut out virtually all the offending stuff 2 or 3 years ago. At the same time Celtic fans carried on with their pro-IRA and their hun stuff and nothing was done about it. This resulted in a kick-back from a section of our support and some of the songs came back in.

 

There has been a large element of only going after the Rangers fans and I'm surprised that you suggest that it's head in the sand to suggest that.

 

The fact that it's only this year that the Thistle fans have been asked to stop their FTP and FTQ line when they have been doing it with impunity for many, many years proves the point.

 

Perhaps it is changing slightly with your example and the GB have been under pressure as well, which is good to see, but it's going to take a lot more evidence to suggest that there's a level playing field.

[amms 0]

The Rangers fans did cut out virtually all the offending stuff 2 or 3 years ago. At the same time Celtic fans carried on with their pro-IRA and their hun stuff and nothing was done about it. This resulted in a kick-back from a section of our support and some of the songs came back in.

 

There has been a large element of only going after the Rangers fans and I'm surprised that you suggest that it's head in the sand to suggest that.

 

The fact that it's only this year that the Thistle fans have been asked to stop their FTP and FTQ line when they have been doing it with impunity for many, many years proves the point.

 

Perhaps it is changing slightly with your example and the GB have been under pressure as well, which is good to see, but it's going to take a lot more evidence to suggest that there's a level playing field.

 

If they are only going after Rangers fans then why are so many non-Rangers fans charged? It's a misconception is what I'm saying, the figures don't bear it out. Celtic fans have been charged over singing 'IRA' songs, Celtic as a club have made public statements asking their support to stop singing certain songs. Sections of their support do come under scrutiny from the authorities.

But in the end this isn't about Celtic, it's about us. Let them worry about what they think is acceptable. Songs about the YCV and the UVF should have no place in our repertoire, it's astonishing we're even having this debate in 2013.

 

Society has moved on yet we, as it often appears, are lagging behind. Why is that, why aren't we more switched on, more involved and more in touch? That's what this debate should be about, not whether a section of our support can sing about murder gangs simply because they think others are allowed to sing about different murder gangs.

[calscot 0]

Even taking the morality out of the equation, it seems to be obvious to me that it is the MOPEs who are far better at explaining why they are offended than we are at explaining why we are singing the songs. We don't actually have much of a case and so they have a huge advantage there.

 

I also think that one of the reasons that they are not under so much scrutiny is that they are infinitely more motivated to spend a load of time and effort, and with no shame, complaining and taking things as far as they can go.

 

They are indoctrinated so much that they have their cleverest people having the equivalent of second jobs doing this, while our more clever people are the ones in dismay that we sing our dodgy songs in the first place, and even if they are fine with them, they are not so rabid as to spend all their spare time on some sort of single minded crusade.

 

We are at a huge disadvantage and that's why the answer is to first clean up our act. The only way to fight fire with fire is to become just like them. Is that really what people want? We fight the evil by becoming the evil? Just what is the point in that?

 

Maybe we need to decide what "We are people" means. I can't see how we are different by being the same as them.

[Super_Ally 0]

Amms, more Rangers fans do get done than others. I think the stats and numbers show this.

 

Largely Rangers cut out all offensive songs with the odd slip here and there.

 

Largely Celtic did nothing and continued with pro-terrorist and sectarian displays.

 

I think a good case can be made that Rangers cleaned up our act immeasurably. Celtic largely did nothing and continue with nigh on all their offensive behaviours.

 

Yet as many if not more Rangers fans get charged, prosecuted, condemned in the media etc.

 

How you can paint that as even handed I don't know.

 

The argument is not "look at them, look at them". The argument is:

 

- you tell us modern Scotland wants to eradicate anti-social behaviour.

- we are the first and main target.

- we improve our behaviour immeasurably.

- fans that were previously if not as bad as us are certainly now far worse. Our behaviour has improved massively. There's has not changed.

- if politicians, media and Jock public really care about all this stuff why are there no other targets in their sights? The odd effort here and there e.g. Thistle is not the same as the concerted anti- Rangers agenda that gave birth to the money draining and political grandstanding sectarianism industry.

 

At some point there needs to be a serious look at the behaviour of the Celtic support and then Aberdeen and all the other offensive chants and clubs.

 

If the sectarian initiatives and campaigns only ever focus 90% on Rangers, and a Rangers support that was massively improved in behaviour how can anyone believe there really is any true effort to tackle society wide offensive behaviour in football.

 

 

( Regards your point on the man in the street and the YCV and pistols and guns. They just don't give a fuck. They care about the price of petrol, whether their job is safe, even independence. Unless they belong to a staunch football support they don't give a fuck. You, the media an the politicians can pretend it is being done to protect the innocents sensibilities but they just don't come into contact with this offensive behaviour or probably even realise it when they do. It would require someone else to tell them the words, explain the context and tell them why they should be "offended". Your average Scotsman is probably more offended by someone not indicating off a roundabout. They likely wouldn't want you jailed for that though.).

 

You're obviously a really clever guy. And I agree the songs aren't necessary. But genuinely no one is really offended or gives a flying fuck. To give this sectarianism industry and crusade any credence as a real and honest attempt to clean up anti-social behaviours is farcical.

[Bluedell 5,329]

If they are only going after Rangers fans then why are so many non-Rangers fans charged? It's a misconception is what I'm saying, the figures don't bear it out. Celtic fans have been charged over singing 'IRA' songs, Celtic as a club have made public statements asking their support to stop singing certain songs. Sections of their support do come under scrutiny from the authorities.

As I said, things have been improving over the last 12 months or so but one swallow does not make a summer.

[Super_Ally 0]

Take Rangers and Celtic out of it and look at the bare facts.

 

In society there are 2 groups who account for the vast majority of the population. These groups, A and B, engage in similar behaviours that are deemed unsavoury. The government tell us they wish to eradicate this behaviour.

 

Initially pretty much only group A are targeted whilst group B and C (C are collectively the remaining small but diverse groups in the population) make no change. They carry on being as offensive as before. There is no political pressure or media pressure to alter what we are told is offensive behaviours.

 

Group A remove a lot of offensive behaviour. They show massive improvement. Still no attention is focused on groups B an C. This continues for several years. Eventually the occasional incident involving those from group B and C is highlighted. The efforts of media, politicians and the police continues to focus primarily on group A.

 

How do you expect the group A population to react?

 

And can you honestly, with a straight face say that there is a real commitment to tackling offensive behaviour? Or just a want to blame one section if society for all it's ills.

 

Also, you take a group of many thousands of people, you largely persecute them whilst ignoring other equally offensive behaviour. They improve a lot but still no one is interested in other parties. How do you expect people in that group to respond? Do you think their might be a backlash from these people when they understand no one really wants to tackle this issue across the board. Not everyone in the Rangers support can have the patience of amms etc waiting for attention to be turned to other parties.

 

You take tens of thousand of people at rock ness. You get a lot of anti social behaviour. I think this demonstrates that you cannot ever expect the Rangers support to be 100% white. If that is what we have to wait for until the rest are tackled then that will never come. Perhaps that is the point?

[Max Rebo's Big Blue Nose 0]

"Society has moved on yet we, as it often appears, are lagging behind. Why is that, why aren't we more switched on, more involved and more in touch? That's what this debate should be about, not whether a section of our support can sing about murder gangs simply because they think others are allowed to sing about different murder gangs."

 

This sums it up perfectly for me. I couldn't give a toss about what "they" sing. It doesn't change the fact that a large section of our fans seem determined to gamble with the clubs image to try and re-inforce some "natural order" regarding songs about murder, guns et all. C'mon to feek. This is 2013! Bobby Sands, UVF songs at a football match? If these guys genuinely feel that these songs have a political purpose, please retain them for a "political" platform.

[BrahimHemdani 1]

The Rangers fans did cut out virtually all the offending stuff 2 or 3 years ago. At the same time Celtic fans carried on with their pro-IRA and their hun stuff and nothing was done about it. This resulted in a kick-back from a section of our support and some of the songs came back in.

 

There has been a large element of only going after the Rangers fans and I'm surprised that you suggest that it's head in the sand to suggest that.

 

The fact that it's only this year that the Thistle fans have been asked to stop their FTP and FTQ line when they have been doing it with impunity for many, many years proves the point.

 

Perhaps it is changing slightly with your example and the GB have been under pressure as well, which is good to see, but it's going to take a lot more evidence to suggest that there's a level playing field.

 

I suggest you make a freedom of information request about the statistics of those charged under the OBA; I think you will find that you are wrong and Amms is correct.

[Bluedell 5,329]

I suggest you make a freedom of information request about the statistics of those charged under the OBA; I think you will find that you are wrong and Amms is correct.

 

Over what time period?

 

Edit - are you suggesting that many more Celtic fans have been charged than Rangers fans in the last 12 months?

[BrahimHemdani 1]

Over what time period?

 

Since the Act became law on 1 March 2012.