craig

eh ? If you are looking at Jon's table he had a previous version up that had us top after 4 games. I am pretty sure my math is at least average enough to work out his table was wrong !

That isn't updated is it ? Have we not played everyone except Italy, should it not be 5 games ?

I have Koevermans in my Gers team in FM07 - scores plenty !

YES !!!!! 2-1 - Beattie, only a couple mins to go !

I agree Ian. a player is only as good as his last performance - saying that, Hutton has been very good since the turn of the year. You can't look at how many games a guy has played in the last 2 years, it is all about current form. Would be interested to see who Bluetooth would put at RB in Hutton's place, should be amusing !

How many red cards has he had this season Pete ?? has he had any ? His temperament is definitely in need of improvement but I dont think he has seen red (I stand to be corrected).

What tosh ! So you are saying he has only had one good game in 6 or 7 ? He has been one of our better performers since the turn of the year.

I agree Pete, strange decision - the SPL are obviously banking on Celtic not dropping many points before playing us

I watched the game live. Ajax were far superior (but as Pete says PSV were crippled with injuries)

That optimism bubble burst the other week huh Gav ?

Still, it happened in OUR ground. No matter who he was or who he supports he was at OUR game and infringed on the pitch. Who else should UEFA have fined ? Celtic ?

Cammy, there is NOT ONE place in Calscot's post where he said the fans were attacked because of the songs. That is putting words in his mouth. He said that you lose much sympathy for the attacks when you sing those songs, very different to suggesting the songs caused the attacks.

We need a PR company that can see the common sense in all of this. Our club are in Spain where the announcement system is under the control of the local club (I can't see them allowing anyone Rangers connected from controlling that in their own stadium) and yet a song which no doubt will be used and abused by our support comes on that said announcement system. Coincidence ? Of course not !! Conspiracy ? Quite probably. But we need the club to not only denounce the fans who abused the song but also to question the sense in having that song played over an announcement system not controlled by us !

Us breaking the law is still the issue - but I agree that there is another issue in why we are the only ones being punished - which is why I suggest that we fight fire with fire - good luck to UEFA if they ban us from European competition for next season and then Rangers fans bombard them with complaints over sectarian, bigotted, racist chants from the terraces in the CL and UEFA Cup next year (and we all know they will happen) - UEFA will NOT treat the other clubs as they treat us and they will not ban other clubs - this would give Rangers, if the management had the balls, a concrete case to take to the European Court of Justice for lost revenues. I would think that many of us know why their isn't parity in reporting and dealing with the issues - it is an anti-Rangers (or pro-Celtic) agenda - we all know that they have issues as big, probably bigger, than we do ! As I said, the gloves need to come off and we need to bombard reporting outlets with all the colourful stuff that takes place within the Celtic ranks.

Agreed on all fronts. The club need to be more aggressive in pursuit of getting to the REAL issues - yes the singing is an issue but the much bigger issue is the barbaric nature of the Pamplona police inside the ground.

As I said in another post - the RST are TRYING to combat the first part of your post by having their summer conference. The club should have had the foresight to do it, not the RST - but that is a whole other matter. I also think it is a poor excuse to say that we can't get our own house in order because of others - FFS Cammy, you saw the youtube video - that is an element of getting your own house in order - and we failed miserably. If our support can't get it right when they have been TOLD what NOT to sing then what chance do they have with the rest of the offensive stuff ? Ohhh, and as of now, the other "offensive" stuff has not been determined to be sectarian, so had our fans sang that stuff, or waves their UF's etc in Pamplona then it may have offended some people but it wouldn't get us potentially banned from Europe.

I disagree, I think the issue is 2 fold. If we broke the law I fail to see how you can say this isn't an issue. The issues are 1. We broke the law, so have to deal with the consequences. 2. There is injustice in dealing with Rangers and dealing with everyone else. I think that these are the issues. There are ways to at least try to deal with the issues. Some could be 1. Campaigns to highlight the inequality 2. Education (the RST conference will hopefully achieve this). 3. Fight fire with fire - when you hear a Celtic "folk" song you don't like, complain to the SFA, SPL and if it is a Euro competition, UEFA. We have always said we are dignified and to carry out #3 is not the "Rangers way" - we could very well get to the point where there IS NO Rangers way as the people you mention Cammy could kill our club. Personally I think we are long overdue to take the gloves off and come out fighting. The sad thing is that the Tims (did I offend anyone ??) don't realise that they actually need us, much as we need them - without us as competition to them (and vice versa) they will die too because their crowds will dwindle, revenues will dwindle, the SPL will become a farce of a competition, Sadly, they just don't see the bigger picture.

I agree with you Cammy but it still all comes back to keeping your own house in order. There IS a one-sided agenda here - but if we had our own house in order then it would be ever more difficult for that agenda to gain ground, IMO.

No bother Ian - I think we agree !! You can obey the rules and still fight them, absolutely - but what happened in Pamplona was that we disobeyed the rules, simple really. There are ways to get your point across and fight against the rules - but the one way to NOT do it is by disobeying the rules.

No matter what, our fans broke a mandate passed down from UEFA - we are GUILTY. Does it mean that no other club is guilty ? Of course not. But the simple fact remains - WE ARE GUILTY. I agree about the club growing a back-bone and the "dignified silence" no longer works when their is a much more aggressive anti-Rangers agenda out there than there was maybe 10 years ago. Maybe the time is right to not be "dignified" at all - and have Rangers fans, the club etc complain each and every time that they see and hear racist, sectarian, offensive chants from the terraces at other games. But at the end of the day, the simple fact remains - some of our fans were guilty of sectarian chants (sectarian as laid down by UEFA/agreed to by the club). If you commit the crime you do the time. I dont think there is parity between us and other clubs - but I think it takes all parties connected to Rangers (the club, fans groups, fans and this "PR machine" we are paying top dollar for) to highlight this inequality.

The incidents in Italy recently fall under the Italian Federation's jurisdiction, not UEFA's. But did Bain not come out and ask the fans for their personal accounts of what happened in Osasuna so they could take it to UEFA ? Until we have closure on the issues as they are then we can't say if nothing will happen about the maltreatment of fans or not, IMO.

Indeed - gone but NEVER forgotten ! RIP the one and only Davie Cooper.

Hopefully after the RST conference in the summer Cammy we will be able to move forward. Is it not the case that the RST are going to try to resolve what is and is not sectarian at this conference (hence the invites to politicians and UEFA delegates alike ?) I don't agree that the self-imposed ban is necessarily an own goal either. It would be if it was the only issue at hand and if we tried to close the issue at that but, as far as I could see, the club are asking fans to get in touch so that the club can go to UEFA with personal accounts of the maltreatment of the fans. So the refusal for future away tickets is ONLY an own goal if the other issues are allowed to be swept under the carpet, and at this point it doesn't seem they will be.

There is, in my opinion, absolutely NO WAY that the UF will be banned from being flown at Ibrox. No matter your political or national persuasion we are still a BRITISH (and Scottish) club. To ban the UF at Ibrox will open a HUGE can of worms because in essence Scotland (as one would assume it would be the Scottish legislators that would ban it) would be making more of a nationalistic & political statement than a sporting one. Even Joke McConnell would be a political sitting duck trying to have that happen. Actually, I would LIKE to see them try to ban the UF from Ibrox because it would prove beyond doubt to everyone that there is a Scottish anti-Rangers agenda (example, how could you possibly be in a country that is part of the Union and have a flag banned that incorporates your home country as well as that of the Union and just 3 miles east you have a flag being flown that is foreign and anti-British generally) ?

Without all my mumbo-jumbo this is EXACTLY the way to attempt to have rules changed and is what both calscot and I were getting at.