maineflyer

The thing about trying to change organisations is that they are usually as they are because of the internal interests of their hierarchy and are almost always resistant to change, no matter how sensible that change might be. Also, in order to make way for something/someone that can make a positive difference, you first have to remove the dysfunctional misfit currently occupying the stage. Even Lenin grasped that one. We all know the current fans organisations are hopeless and will never achieve the change we need. We also know they will never change. But as long as they continue to exist they will act as a brake on any progress. Only when they are no longer around to hinder better voices will those better voices ever emerge. The support is effectively in a state of hijack, with some quite unsavoury characters holding the guns. How you get them to put those guns down and walk away is at the heart of both our ills and our hope. I wish I had the answer.

I'm not sure. There are many who are already critical, some who have been for a decade or more. The problem is in the numbers but it's not true to say we need to fall over the cliff before we realise we're heading downwards. Maybe we just need to listen to different voices. Maybe we just need to find the moment that would previously have been ignored.

What I was suggesting (but probably not clearly) was that we should look at ourselves before worrying too much about Murray or others because .... 1. Unless we sort ourselves out there's never going to be a challenge to Murray, let alone a support worthy or capable of responsibility. The RST is symptomatic of our failures, why on earth would anyone want to bring that into a hopeful future? 2. If we only point fingers at Murray we will never become the support that can make a difference to anything, just as pointing fingers at Lloyds means we keep missing the fact that it's Murray who lies at the root of our ills. We are what really needs to change. Looking around for someone to lead us is the very reason why no leadership ever emerges, it's just the same old buck passing, the same "who's gonna make it better".

Thinking about the news that offers are being received for Allan McGregor, I'm not really surprised that he will be sold. Wealthy clubs have always accumulated the best players and we should expect our best to be targeted by these clubs. After all, we've done it ourselves for over a hundred years. I do find it dispiriting that he might be sold for as little as �£5m which neither seems to reflect contemporary value nor the importance of the player to the club. Such underselling inevitably diminishes the club even further. But we have a ready replacement in Alexander, who will not let us down, and apart from the price this isn't the end of the world on its own. What I do find utterly depressing however is the lack of any apparent end to this decline. At the time when I first discovered Gersnet some years back I was convinced the club would diminish considerably from where it was then but I also expected a time would come when it would be sold and a new beginning would be reached, perhaps not quite on the scale of the 1986 rebirth but at least a fresh start. Now I fear we might yet look back and see these times as something to aspire to. If the tax investigation ends badly, we might easily sink without trace. I just hope we finally have it in us to wake up and never again put our unquestioning faith in an owner as we did with Murray. Not only did we close our collective eyes to what was going on at the club but we actively encouraged Murray to indulge himself with the thing we held so dear. "Rape us harder Dave, it must be good for us". How fucking stupid do we look now? And given the lack of any voice being raised against Murray even now, how stupid are we yet prepared to become. From the laughable posturing these last few months by the RST and other accumulations of plastic, it seems the pit of our stupidity might indeed be bottomless. Quite prepared to hoot about Lloyds and holler about Donald Muir, our 'reps' show their finely honed affectations at every turn but do you hear a single meaningful proposal directed at the root of the problem? Do you fuck. Do you see one attempt to harness the fans in protest? Do you see one glimmer of hope that the support has finally decided enough is enough? Do you fuck. It appears our capacity for self-deception and weakness is perhaps limitless after all. Instead of looking for the cause of our decline only in others, maybe we could usefully spend some time on more introspective reflection. just a thought.

Sorry if I'm being slow here - what paper money were you referring to?

In that case there should be an auditor preparing to go to court then. The idea that funds can just slide off the table doesn't stand up in the real world I'm afraid.

It's hard to argue with his views in that interview tbh, well at least when you see him as manager of Blackpool and not just another punter. If he's talking shit then I wish we had more people talking shit at Rangers when it comes to selling players.

What money is that then?

Er .... sorry.

I'd no idea how privileged we were ... the world's only cool accountant ... wow.:devil:

Yes but the establishment force was much weaker back then. :grin:

I think that's the wHole problem. No one can predict with any certainty if it's zero or �£50m or anywhere in between.

The following is from BBC Sport website .... looks to me like a clear pre-cursor to the deal falling through ..... but I suppose we continue to live in forlorn hope ..... By Alasdair Lamont Craig Whyte remains hopeful of concluding his proposed takeover of Rangers before the end of January. Whyte has been in negotiations with the current owner Sir David Murray since the middle of November. He had hoped to complete a �£33m deal before Christmas, but due diligence has taken longer than Whyte expected. Meanwhile, the Rangers Supporters' Trust chief has warned that fans could boycott Lloyds Bank if they continue to deny Rangers funds for squad building. Whyte considers the matter to be largely in Murray's hands at this stage, with Whyte's lawyers and accountants awaiting responses to a number of queries from the current owner. He expects that following a period of relative inactivity over the festive period, which he found frustrating, the pace of negotiations will now pick up. However, if Whyte can conclude a deal soon, he hopes to be able to help Rangers manager Walter Smith strengthen his squad. On Thursday, Smith bemoaned the current financial constraints at the club, stating that he would be unable to bring in new players unless he sold first. Stephen Smith, chairman of the Rangers Supporters' Trust, reiterated their stance regarding Lloyds Bank's involvement with the club. "The sooner Lloyds are disentangled from the running of Rangers Football Club the better," he told BBC Scotland. "I'm as worried now as I was last year when the manager felt strongly enough to publicly criticise the bank's role. "We've had a successful Champions League campaign, we're guaranteed at least two more European games, yet there has still been no change in attitude from Lloyds. "We're challenging for four competitions and that's why the size of the squad is a concern. "If the manager's saying we need help, why are Lloyds behaving in such a vindictive way towards Rangers? "If that begins to materially affect Rangers on the park, we will certainly look to take action to try to change that. "Getting the Rangers family involved in a boycott of Lloyds bank can't be ruled out." As of September 2010 Rangers' debt stood at �£27m. While Smith was allowed to conduct some transfer business in the summer - including the purchase of Nikica Jelavic for �£4m - his hands have been largely tied on that front for the past three seasons. The Scottish champions trail league leaders Celtic by four points, although they have two games in hand. However, as things stand, Smith will have to challenge in all domestic competitions, as well as in the Europa League, with the same small squad of players. Meanwhile, across Glasgow, rivals Celtic appear likely to bring in more players during the January transfer window. Champions League participation over the last two seasons has helped Rangers go some way to alleviating their financial problems. But failure to win the Scottish Premier League again this term, and thereby miss out on the lucrative Champions League, would reverse that trend and make things even more restrictive for whoever succeeds Smith as Rangers manager next season

.... and a world class fullback. Where did we find his kind of talent back then?

Anyway, does anyone really believe this is anything other than a veil of bullshit being drawn over the eyes of an increasingly cynical support? But look on the bright side, what will you spend you season ticket money on this year?

I'd go for Davie Robertson by a short head but neither of them could hold a candle to Eric Caldow.

Letting Nacho go and replacing him with Beattie was one of those dubious deals that casts huge doubt on the club's ability to manage the squad. Either Walter fucked up or he's not running the show and the likes of Bain is stumbling from one unconnected deal to the next.

It would certainly be a whole lot more appropriate ...... and I agree, effective.

No Zappa, derailed only by one bitter, disaffected soul who seems hellbent on criticizing what he clearly couldn't do himself. You might almost think he didn't last long on VB Anyway, I doubt if those he dismisses will lose sleep over his comments, nor will the author of the article give him a moment's thought, which seems only reasonable. Of course the article has undeniable value beyond flushing out the disaffected. It helps inform, clarify and coalesce opinion. It gives huge satisfaction to serfs like me who can't organize or express my thoughts in such a powerful manner but who nevertheless harbour equally strong views. If there's been a better article from a Ramgers supporter in the last year then I didn't see it. RBR brought our attention to the words, not the writer or where it was published ... The bear from Cumbernauld might want to remember that.

You're in no position to know anything about VB, fact.

You're letting yourself down badly with your inane swipes across a number of threads today. You might think angry is all it takes to make a point but you just come acts as pathetic with this nonsense. Foreveroffended clearly penned a considered and remarkably well-constrcted article that does our cause proud. Vanguardbears doesn't seek to be everyone's cup of tea but it does bat for Rangers on every front possible - surely that would hold some attraction to every Rangers fan, even you if that's what you are. If you took the time to look and if you had the half the wit you'd like to have you'd understand that VB has connections and influence well beyond the obvious posts on a football forum. At this moment, they are pretty much the only voice we have as a support that the outside world can hear. The fact that it isn't all conducted in a blaze of self-gratification like FF/RST should only be welcomed. That's about all I can say in reply without the certainty of being banned but don't think your comments aren't fully appreciated.

No Jelavic, no Weiss, no win.

Sorry about that momentary weakness in the face of severe temptation.

Best article FO has produced yet. Outstanding.

Aw fuck, he's lost it.