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Good thread this with some great points and counter-points. My own tuppence is that the summer recruitment and retention was a complete disaster (in hindsight). As I hadnt heard of any of the new recruits I can only judge from what I see when they play for us, and I can safely say that only Colak has impressed me enough to think of him as a first team starter, but even at that he is not an improvement on Morelos, and not of an age we can sell on, so im baffled by the purchase although enjoying his contributions. Ben Davies (when fit) is not any better than Balogun or Katic, Matondo hasnt settled (im trying to be kind!) Soutter has played about exactly as many minutes as most predicted, Yilmaz was not required but is the right profile apart from this being his third injury in 3 months so that puts him on the Souttar scale! Lawrence started well and has been missed, but given we have only seen so few games, who knows if he will be better than what we had. Alongside Helander, Roofe & Jack, the 3 perma-gubbed players that should all have been moved on, we could not afford to re-sign Davis & Arfield. I give the resigning of McGregor a pass as he is still by far our best goalkeeper and we could easily have forseen him lasting another year to allow us to divert funds elsewhere this season. The injury list is about as bad as I have ever seen it. What about our world-leading sports science and injury-predicting bollocks we were all being told of over the last year or so? Has it disappeared? What about our coaching and fitness work? Clearly the big two players in recent years, Tav & Kent, have stunk the place out this season. Tav is either injured or has been tactically prevented from playing to his peak, or has just lost form after being so consistent for so long. Kent has never had good enough returns for his gametime for me, nowehere near the amount of goals and assists that a player costing £7M in that position should be expected to contribute. Should by now have seen big improvements in his numbers, and looks like working his ticket towards free agency. In saying all of the above, I am not in the time to sack everyone camp. I just want improvements from all involved who seem to be about as good as we can get at our level. I think Wilson has had a stinker but is still sufficiently highly thought of to come good. Same goes for Gio. The tactical changes, planning and subs that worked so well in Europe last season has deserted us, of course this could be linked to the availability of players, but I hope he can get more answers and options than what we have seen so far this season. I dont see the point of blowing upwards of £5M to replace, as I dont see anybody available who has a better pedigree that looks to be a better fit, that wouldnt come with another £5M buyout cost. I want to see that money spent on the park, not to agents and other clubs for management and coaches. I have been hoping we can limp our way to the WC break, get our players back and do the opposite of the last few years, ie kick on after the break after a great first half. This year a rubbish first half could (fingers crossed) see a resurgent second half of the season as we clinch the domestic treble!

Anyone who thinks we are in a position to compete at European level given circumstance and condition is either ignoring the situation or is hoodwinked by last season and getting to the Europa Final. Since 1993 (so in the last 30 years) we have had TWO seasons where we made European finals and both times we greatly punched above our weight. We have had another couple of decent forays in Europe which have been largely due to the unbelievable exploits of our previous manager and the legendary Walter. We should remember that for almost a decade of that time we were largely financially outspending English heavyweights and also financially competing with many of Europe's top clubs - yet still couldn't really make a dent in continental competition. Some of Europe's top clubs are spending well over 100 million in transfer fees and still find they can't compete at this level. With our paltry income neither should we be. Yes, we have a proud, storied history and are one of football's most successful clubs - but UEFA have seen to it that a handful of leagues and a handful of clubs within those leagues will continue to increase the chasm between the have and have-nots. Yet here we are, in a footballing, and financial, backwater - somehow thinking we should be competing at this level. We, myself, included - I actually felt we could finish 2nd in this group or, at worst, 3rd and drop to the Europa - I thought we could take points off both Ajax and Napoli home AND away.... how foolish I was - Napoli have such quality that they are my dark horses to go all the way. Throw in last season's beaten finalists and a Dutch club steeped in history and a knack of having technically wonderful players.... and zero points, and worst record in the competitions history, isnt as much of a surprise as we would otherwise think. Incredibly disappointing, yes. Surprising ? Shouldn't have been - though my blind faith had me believing. The team who finished 3rd in our group spent more money on one player than we spent on our whole squad in the summer..... and that one player so happened to be our player - so we are losing our best players but having to use those funds to revitalise a whole squad. The economics just don't stack up for us to be competitive at this level yet. The Europa last season, and even our runs in the previous couple of seasons before, appear to be the abhorration rather than the norm. For now, I am going to look back fondly on Manchester and Seville and recognise that I got to see my team in two finals that, realistically, I shouldnt have. Some will take the juxta position of that and be gutted/annoyed/frustrated that we have been very humbled in this season's CL, as is their prerogative. But a touch of realism should soon have most realizing that is where we are. Manchester and Seville should be cherished because they probably shouldnt have happened.

No, you're right mate to a degree - we didn't bring in enough first XI players as we didn't sign a central midfielder. I also think Matondo was supposed to be one and he looked good in pre-season but he's not done enough so far. I think Davies and Yilmaz may prove to be first XI players but they've also taken time to bed in. Colak has done largely fine but I remain to be convinced he's a better option that a fully fit Morelos. Problem is Morelos has let us down this term. All in all our acquisitions weren't as bad as some make out but they weren't enough and existing players haven't contributed well enough.

Heard the same and posted this in the summer transfer thread (if I remember correctly).

It is still living memory that we started our road back up the leagues in Peterhead in August 2012. Given the circumstances around the club, we handled our journey in an admirable way. We came unstuck just before getting back into the top tier and our first season(s) weren't great, for one reason or another. Eventually, we managed 55 and, truth be told, did tremendously in an European environment that was essentially on par with (if not above) our capabilities. Yet, when it comes to Champions League elite football, we are still at Peterhead-level. As in: there is a long road ahead till we can dream of challenging the teams we have faced this season. There is no doubt in my mind that we might be able to hold our own against the Kopenhagens, Glimts, Plzens, Donezks or Haifas of this planet, maybe even Benfica, Brugges, Sporting or the like on a good day. That is the stark reality and will be a reality for years to come. If that sinks in, the gloom and doom will sure ease a little.

I've certainly noticed some strange coverage of Celtic's dreadful campaign - not least last night when waiting on my daughter. As such I can understand why Craig fancied having a wee dig.

King made some mistakes but he also made some great tackles. He is going to be excellent for us or make us a fortune. People keep going on about us having kept Balogun but i would rather see king play than have kept him.

Can You Speak Out of Your Arse? PQ Producers regularly ask this question when considering pundits to talk matters Sellik? Last night, Big Dick introduced a ten minute segment of fellow Dandy, Liam McLeod commentating on Rangers conceding nineteen(19) goals in this season's Champions League group games(after 5 matches). To highlight and reinforce the paucity of Rangers preparedness for CL group games, Big Dick finished by telling of BBC Alba's Alex O'Henley reporting yesterday's CL Youth group match at Firhill, it finished Rangers 2 Ajax 6. Big Dick was anxious to let us know it will not get any better any time soon, he relished taking away the hope. I watched yesterday's Youth match and Rangers were 0-1 down early on, then were deservedly reduced to ten men, Rice sent off. We recovered and the ten managed to edge 2-1 ahead. Ajax equalised in the second minute of first half injury time. Ajax Youths are top notch, the second half was an exercise in finding the extra man and, deservedly ran out 2-6 winners. We know Alex O'Hanley is a good friend to Rangers? Anyways, he did NOT report the whole story and Big Dick knowingly pounced. I thought I have never heard BBC Scotland report on Euro Youth games before? I listened this evening as Peter Grant, Pat Bonner, Chris Sutton, Liam McLeod, .... etc all spoke out their collective bahookie. Real Madrid defeated Angeball 5-1 and, Pat articulated amazement at the amount of chances created by Sellik. Peter was anxious to expose his bigger arse, "if Benzema was playing for Sellik, with those chances, Sellik would top the group". Sellik finished bottom of their group, just like Rangers. Sellik Youths lost 4-1 to Real Madrid today and finished bottom of the group too, but none of this was reported. I suspect South Uist born and bred Alex O'Henley was having difficulty finding his mouth/arse? During his playing days, Peter was a great gesticulator. He pointed out he was NEVER to blame. Thus, if Albion Rovers had signed Benzema and created the necessary opportunities, then Coatbridge's finest would be topping a CL group. If Pat knew his arse from his elbow, he would be speaking out of his cubitus. The last time Real Madrid played a Scots club, it was fifteen months ago at Ibrox, Rangers won 2-1. Alex O'Henley failed to report this too, he was too busy flicking his green'n'grey tongue at Pat's cubitus, or was he licking Peter's arse? We should be told?

The current situation is unacceptable and the ongoing silence emanating from the Blue Room compounds. Ra Sellik won the Premiership last season. Their automatic qualification for the Champions League group stages was facilitated by the national coefficient, largely established by Rangers efforts in the prevailing four seasons. We qualified for the group stages by playing four qualifying games, winning two, drawing and losing one apiece. I believe we have contributed 6.5 points to the coefficient this season, more than any other Scottish club? I drove to last night's game and heard BBC Radio Scotland's build up, they played a full ten minutes of commentary of all goals conceded by us in this season's CL group stages, interceded by clips of GVB saying, "we will learn", "we are in development" and, "we cannot compete". Big Dick introduced and Liam McLeod screamed with satisfaction. Truly, we are chastened. Currently, we hold the record for the worst performance ever in CL group stages. I am not looking for a sacrifice, I am not looking for pointless reaction that raises the whole tone of the campaign. Certainly, I am not looking for a repeat of November'69 - I stood as a 12 year old schoolboy with my Old Man in Edmiston Drive with 12,000 other Bears. We had just lost 1-3 to Gornik in the ECWC, a trophy we were favourites to win. Lubanski's goal would have won any cup buy Man City beat the unfancied Poles in the final. The Rangers Manager, Davie White was sacked that evening. I do NOT want a repeat. I want the Board to come out and accept responsibility and tell us the way ahead. I want leadership. Without leadership, others are allowed to seize the narrative.

It was quite the opposite from what I have been told. Barisic wanted to stay but informed the club that if they wanted to go down a different route then he would offer to leave to make space - but wasnt his preference.

Keeping on all three of Davis, Arfield and McGregor was silly. I said it at the time but in hindsight, it actually looks worse because our midfield and goalkeeper really aren't good enough.

It would be easy to think they've beaten Real Madrid home and away, the way some of the press and their fans are carrying on (they lost 8-1 on aggregate). Makes me glad I'm a Rangers man - thoroughly disappointed with our campaign.

Agree entirely. So long as Celtc sell our TV rights to Sky on the cheap the gap will only grow.

I might be going senile but I go for a boy thrown in because of injuries he had poor game and was unfairly slaughtered by an explayer leon King the boy needs encouragement not slaughtered

I’m a great believer that if you get the football side of things right at a club then the rest becomes easier. We’ve not done that. Since 2016 promotion we’ve had 4 managers & Murty temporary twice. That tells its own story i.e. some poor appointments. On the football side I believe we should be basically an under25 team with 2 or 3 older players at most. And always be prepared to sell on players we develop and reinvest the money in the squad to begin the process all over again. Like Ajax do. We are now starting to see this happening although our recruitment has to be significantly better than we saw last summer and previously too. We are on the right road but only at the very beginning. There’s a long way to go

I said that I see enough talent in there that he is good enough for a title winning team. At Scottish level he might have not yet proven himself to some, yet he showed more fresh spark than e.g. Kent has all season. His only drawback so far has been the fact that Borna has found some fine form himself. Re Matondo ... see Kent.

I'm not sure our situation today can be explained away in the proposition the CL has moved on but we haven't. Of course the CL has moved on. Given the cumulative effect of concentrating ever more money in a small group of elite clubs, it would be strange if it hadn't. The fact is we are still recovering from the events of 2012 and are still well away from the end of that process, so assessing Rangers as a European club is as much a matter of our domestic turmoil as it is about our European potential. Winning 55 didn't in any way signal the end of our recovery journey, it was merely a fortunate punctuation mark. If we're going to assess Rangers as a European contender then the soonest I would be doing so is towards the end of this decade. In the meantime, we have still to establish ourselves as a genuine domestic challenger and that has to be our sole immediate ambition, something I think it's realising to see us achieving in another 2 or 3 years from now. It's all about realistic expectation.

And we were beaten 9-1 on aggregate by the team RM beat by a whisker in the CL final last year. Funny that eh.

Kamara and Morelos should have been sold a couple of years ago when they were at their peak - that's not to say they can't recover that level, which I think they can; I still rate them. I don't think Barisic should be moved on. I think he's at that weird age where you don't want to rely on him, but you don't want to get rid of the experience that can help Yilmaz. I'd keep him until Yilmaz is established, then move on. I would have liked to have seen Kent and Roofe moved on this summer.

Irrespective of the managers failings (like most Dutch dogmatism seems to ail him) the attitude and work ethic of many of our players has been to put it mildly simply woeful. At the arse end of last season we were playing 3 games in a week with 2 of them 120 minutes long all high tempo, that attitude and work ethic was awe inspiring, those traits must return. I doubt there's one single department at fault for that the blame should be collective and nobody failing short can be sacrosanct. The DoF has a hell lot to do to find some redemption far, far too many misses, far too many contracts handed out to those who should have been thanked for their services and patted on the back. The goalkeeping situation has been coming to a head for long enough it really should have been addressed and if Wilson really is a DoF then he owns that failure 100%. I get the notion of paying good wages to a decent Bosman Lundstrum, Lawrence and the younger projects like Bassey and accept there will be misses along with the hits but the proportion of hits must greatly and rapidly increase before he dan find some redemption. I concur with those saying we've been unlucky with injuries but it's down to more than luck and anyway as wiser man than me sang "when it comes to good luck you make your own.....". The conditioning and medical departments cannot go unscathed because the deterioration has been so severe so fast, some games when the hour comes we look done in. The dressing room really has to stop looking like the set of Causualty. The Board too have many questions to answer starting with one of my pet woes the eternal and bizarre PR and Communication shambles. They'd escape a gell of a lot of the flak aimed at them ftom the support of they actually had a functional proactive PR and Communication strategy. As I've touched on before they really should have been open and honest with the fans into just how bad the infrastructure at Ibrox and Auchenhowie was and how long it will take to bring them up to the standards desired let alone explaned what the costs will, they're eye wateringly painful. Nobody notices new roofs, new boilers, new pumps as they tend to be located out of sight erho out of mind but these things are both vital and expensive. Where I will give the Board some credit (apart from funding us through the pandemic which was no small feat) is their apparent determination to run us in a sustainable basis and not pandering to the spend,spend, spend mob. If any set of fans know the dangers in chasing moonbeams then surely it's us but I suppise some will never learn. It's fair to moan about the state of the toilets and it's fair to moan about the lack of options on the right wing but someone has to decide which one the priority is. This is probably the first Board in decades to have a long term stategic plan for the Club it's high time they did us and themselves a favour and shared it, and tell us the bits we don't want to but need to hear as well as the bits do want to hear. The vacuum is doing none of us any favours. We've just been handed a reality check let's hope some good comes of it. Oh and the glabrous one being constructive? Savour the moment savour it!

Clearly the off-field priority must be the installation of Disco Lights. They have them at Piggery Place, and they have helped their European endeavours no end.

Six matches played. Six defeats, 22 goals conceded and just two scored. It's safe to say our CL Group Stage stats don't make for good reading as Rangers exit Europe for season 2022/23 in a campaign that, so far at least, just hasn't got going at all in Europe or domestically. Just what has gone wrong? Rewind back to the start of the season and the outlook was much brighter. Yes, we'd lost important players such as Bassey and Aribo to big money moves but we had strengthened the squad as well. Meanwhile, we still had players such as Morelos, Roofe, Jack and Helander to return from long term injuries so - aside from perhaps one or two positions - most fans were fairly comfortable with the status of the squad. Unfortunately, since then things have turned rather sour. Player after player has succumbed to injury leaving us down to the bare bones in midfield and defence in particular whilst key performers - people we've relied on in recent years - simply haven't turned up for long periods of many matches. Team selection has been inconsistent, our tactics changed regularly to cope and subsequent results are as erratic as the manager's comments in press conferences. Off the field, the club is equally unimpressive. Communication is conceded to be a problem but, aside from one or two brief and less than encouraging interviews, fans are offered mixed messages at best. We're asked to continually fork out top dollar ticket and merchandising prices before then being told there's no money to properly invest in the side. Rangers are apparently about to report recording breaking turnover but instead of that money being put into the team on the park, other projects such as Edmiston House are prioritised. Perhaps more worryingly as more issues are identified with the squad, a variety of player recruitment staff have left with a lack of clarity as to their replacement. At this point I think it's fair to say I don't envy the Rangers board. As much as we've historically been the dominant team in Scotland, circumstances over the last twenty years have undoubtedly affected that position. David Murray, Craig Whyte, Charles Green and others all contributed to weaken our club substantially this millennium. A lack of foresight and planning coupled with greed and ego seen Rangers drop into the lower leagues and, as much as many fans will rightfully tire of that being used as a crutch as we approach 2023, the affect cannot be denied as we attend matches now. Even with the huge amounts of turnover we'll report over the next few weeks – these monies only go so far and cannot be spent all at once. The 'modern-day' Ibrox Stadium is now the better part of 50 years old. That alone is startling enough when you take a breath but a lack of investment in the venue under various regimes offers a maintenance bill that will be eye-watering. Roof repairs, general improvements and ongoing work to develop various areas such as hospitality and disabled facilities have and will continue to cost millions on an annual basis. Some will ask why these were put ahead of players on the park, well, whilst any payback period of the Blue Sky Lounge or Edmiston House may be lengthy, we cannot rely on European football alone for our income. Supporters also need to appreciate that, before this year’s financial reports, the club was loss making with directors making up any short fall via the purchase of shares. That just isn’t tenable longer term and these people have to be paid back at some point. As such whilst (erroneous) headline figures of £30m+ of profit appear exciting, it doesn’t automatically follow we’re spending all of that on players. We still spent £10m in the summer which is a large amount comparatively speaking and we need to budget for more than one season. Unfortunately, it’s where we’ve spent that money that is more of an issue. Was Rabbi Matando any better than Fashion Sakala? How much time did we take to evaluate John Souttar’s injuries? Was Ridvan Yilmaz the marquee signing we needed? Should we have kept one Leon instead of developing the other? Who is responsible for deciding not to strengthen in midfield? All these questions, and more, are key football strategy questions that need to be answered. From the manager, to Ross Wilson and the board, a clear explanation would perhaps help supporters understand our position and apply some rationale to any concerns. Of course the AGM is coming up where some questions may be answered but such meetings aren’t always constructive. Therefore, it’s very important that the board address our perceived shortcomings in plain speak. Football supporters are never the most patient of ‘customers’ so it makes sense to offer clarity. Have we focused too much on infrastructure or was the unavoidable? A plethora of injuries can be attributed to some bad luck but we knew the risks when signing certain players and/or relying too much on others. Who is culpable for what seems a raft of player deficiencies: age profile, fitness, recruitment and contracts? What are our plans for squad investment in January and next summer? In many ways, there are merited reasons for under-performance this season. However, excuses – no matter how valid - can only mitigate so far and I think if we’re honest with ourselves many problems signal deeper issues that appear to go further than the product on the field. Improvement and progress can be found but that will require the kind of clear leadership that seems to have been missing of late. Six months ago we were in a European final but we’ve gone backwards since then. Of course we’ve no right to success but that regression has to be accounted for and responsibility taken. Some honest answers will help and may allow time to turn things around. Nothing else will do and the club must avoid bland soundbites. With no recognised fans group to speak of, the board may think they’re above such transparency. Season ticket waiting lists, a huge MyGers membership and afore-mentioned record turnover may also make some directors feel over-confident when any of that could reverse very quickly if results on the park don’t improve; not just this season but beyond. In contrast, supporters must be prepared to absorb bad news as well. If change is to be made, whether in the squad, the coaching staff or our Sporting Director, that will take more time, more money and more patience. And there still remain no guarantees – not when there are other increasing costs for the club to meet. Lastly, it’s also fair to acknowledge the last ten years have been difficult for our fans and despite daft songs, we haven’t walked away and still back the club impressively year-to-year. The good times have been somewhat rare but they are coming back slowly, very slowly but an inconsistency remains for now which won’t be easy nor quick to solve. That may be tough to recognise or accept but it’s one of the few truths available to us. It's not what you or I want to hear but patience remains a virtue.

I don't think it's weird to say that you want to see the players expend some energy and show passion.

Set up to make it difficult for high quality opposition and try hard for the full match (we see these things happen week in, week out from opposition teams in domestic football, so the concept isn't an alien one). We didn't do either of these things against Ajax (both matches) or after Jack got taken off against Liverpool.

This word 'compete' again. The definition or context of its use is what's dividing opinion. We cannot compete financially at this level, sure, very obviously. We cannot compete to win the competition, again that's clear. It's difficult to compete to get out of the group we were in or even for 3rd and a run in the EL. However , I think we could have competed better if we had the luck of a better draw. But we should certainly be competing in every game we play - by that I mean putting up a damned good fight - making it hard for teams to beat us even if, inevitably, they would. That to me is what competing means, and I expect that from any Rangers team, ravaged with injuries or not. That's what playing for Rangers means. That would sit okay with our fans - we have a sense of realism and will back the manager and team as long as you can hold your head high at the final whistle knowing you gave everything to the cause.

What’s not to be optimistic about? Only the timescale is in doubt. The key is to keep pushing together in the same direction and eventually all barriers fall. Anyway, what other club would you want to be part of?

The consensus seems to be clear. Calm down, moderate expectations or go mad.

Need more than an alchemist to fix this lot might need to bring in Merlin himself.

It's not applause, it's hope.

More a box to box old fashioned #8. Lundstram can play there but i dont see him as a holding midfielder. That's what we need more of. Davis of 10 years ago. Not going to get hung up on tactics/formations. Lundstram and Davis can both get forward without being AM/#10 types. Tillman can do it(Motherwell away). Lowry can do it(Hearts away end of last season). A agree with your initial point its not just more midfielders we need. its the type. We have the right type in Jack/Davis but they cant do it anymore and need replaced. If we sell Kamara perhaps we need another DM but Sands is probably enough.

Kent > Sakala > Tillman. Best 3 players on the night in that order.

Sakala for me, although not always productive i just love his directness and drive, just wish others would take note.

I did notice that in my morning browsing of this morning's papers the deluded lot are as thick as it comes.

yeah agree. If anything our problem has been moving players on. We could have done with moving on Kamara, Kent, Morelos, Barisic, Roofe in the summer in an ideal world but it is what it is.

I don't think our recruitment has been that bad, if we consider the profile of the players. It's only bad in the way that they've been used, IMO.

It worked. Gremlins.

happens to me occasionally on ios devices

I can't like any of the comments on this thread and I am signed in. @Frankie

Proverbs 15:31 If you listen to constructive criticism, you will be at home among the wise.

Tomorrow its the Hearts playing that should complete Scotland's ineptitude at this level . Sad to think that I can remember when Scottish sides could compete with the best of them .

5 - 1, eh? Apparently the referee was a woman. Until tonight, I didn't know what the Eastern Star was for....

Not sure about that. It's pretty much the same as your other thread: First-team mgmt - P*sh. Squad Mgmt - P*sh Medical - P*sh Saleable Assets - P*sh Accounts - TBC, but... P*sh Conclusion: We need to pull a rabbit out of a hat. Magic. Constructive...