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Having read a few forums and group chats this morning, it would appear that our team for Sunday and the remainder of the season should be : Butland anyone but Tav Anyone but Goldson Souttar or anyone but Souttar an unfit and injured Yilmaz Sterling (as well as playing right back and left back and left wing) anyone but Lundstrum McCausland anyone but Lawrence, Dowell or Cantwell anyone but Silva anyone but Dessers or Silva but possibly Sima

Teams seem to have figured us out. Tav and Sterling barely got out our half all match, certainly significantly less than they were a few weeks ago. Other sides realise how important both full backs are to how we attack and have changed tactics to prevent it. We need to have a counter to that. I assume much more was expected of Cantwell and Lawrence last night, creative players capable of producing something that wins you a match. Both were poor, losing possession regularly and slowing us down instead of upping the tempo. Goldson's 'passing' was horrible last night and on Sunday. But, if there's no pass to midfield and no pass to the wings then it's either back to the keeper or across to Souter. Eventually though it goes long. His passing should be better, but the long balls shouldn't be needed in the first place. So many players seem to have lost form at the same time you do wonder if there's an issue we don't know about. A problem in the dressing room, a bug that's swept through the squad and drained players of energy. I'm grasping at straws here because I don't understand how the entire side, with the possible exception of Butland, can collectively lose form simultaneously. Everyone was rotten last night, defenders, midfielders, forwards and subs. Amazingly, despite the collapse, we can still win the league if we win all our games. I mean I don't think we will, anyone with eyes can see we're so far off it. It's massively frustrating, but I can see why Clement is talking things up and putting a gloss on things. He needs to work with the players he's got, throwing them under the bus at this stage won't help.

Three points off the top...five games remaining, a cup in play, and it's all hands to panic stations... Am I saying we are gonna run the table? No. But shit man...watch till the credits.

One thing that was glaring last night, more than normal, is that we didn't have a midfielder on the pitch who was brave enough to take the ball and with his first touch, face the opposition goal. Everytime that the ball was played to Lundstrum last night, his first touch was towards his own goal. While that doesn't sound like its a massive issue, when we are building from the back, its fundamental to play quick. To play quickly, the first touch has to be a positive touch, otherwise the opposition get an extra few seconds to press and close down space. Compound that with the fact that Lundstrum is the deepest midifielder, you're stuffed because teams find it easy to set up against us. Dio was hugely missed last night (and on Sunday)as, while he sometimes can be erratic, he is always positive with that first touch which opens things up and has teams scrambling more. The way to kind of mitigate this is to stretch teams with wingers, but last night we started with Sima and Silva, neither of which are out and out wingers with width. Matondo came on but always looks to come inside so, again, no width. Add to that, two right footers on the left side means the balance of our squad is some of the worst I have ever seen it. There were many things wrong last night, but that was the most glaring things to me

@CammyF's list: Yilmaz Yilmaz Yilmaz Yilmaz Yilmaz Dessers gets a bonus and a new 10-year contract. @der Berliner's list: Tavernier Tavernier Tavernier Tavernier Tavernier Scott Wright gets a bumper new deal, and is made captain.

I'm still gutted from last night, but one thing has become obvious to me. When I was considering who stays and who goes I came to the conclusion that there is not one player in the current squad it would sadden me to loose. I have also noticed a few mentioned we need to buy players capable of beating Ross Co, not Man shitty. The players we have are well capable of they that but for whatever reason have decided not to do so. For some like Goldson, Tav and Lundstram this is not the first time they have let down us, the club and the manager.

If you can’t sell them and they aren’t good enough then you don’t play them and you still look for replacements. I honestly think their mentality seeps through the squad and infects new players. Look at what’s happened to Cantwell and Raskin for instance, they were completely different players when they first joined. I actually said this a year ago, the mentality gets spread through the new signings like a virus and everyone just ends up believing we can’t beat Celtic. I really think we do need a clean break fro, most of these players. Or we can just keep playing them and accept we will be second best.

It's our own fault.

it's sticks in my craw that Keltic would benefit from automatic qualification for the CL, given that the co-efficient was earned entirely by us, while they did hee-haw about improving it.

Can I take Cammy's 5 and Rousseau's 5 as well please.

That’s the outcome when you have defenders who can’t read the game and anticipate the play

Indeed, if the cap fits and all that 😉 . i'd stick him in Lawrences' position ,because when we get a new right back next season that's where he'll end up playing anyway. The punishing runs from RB position aren't getting any easier for Tav .

Also blows the myth that those three hide and / or are sh1tbags. They never hide and are always available. Hence, they are over relied on. Weirdly, players that are seldom available are thought off more highly.

I agree but the 3 you mention have been pretty much ever present over the past 3 years and IMO have ran out of steam. We play much more games that any other team in Scotland year on year. With a squad full of perma injured. That's got to take its toll on the guys who turn up is all I'm saying.

Keeping Cantwell would be fine with me, but he needs to be more consistent as when he is in form, he is a good player. We can't rely on Ridvan, that's a matter of fact, not opinion. Just look at his availability / selection since he arrived. Plus his stats show that he is no better or worse than a declining Barasic (who'll thankfully leave at the end of the season). I'd be agreeable to extending Sima's loan (as we won't be buying him). Same with Cortes but will depend on how he recovers from his injury. Silva should be sent straight back to Wolves. The board are at a cross-road. The squad requires major investment / surgery this summer and that will come at a cost. It took SG 3 seasons to assemble a team that eventually won us the league, I'd say we are in a similar position now as we were when he took over. Recruit is key - we simply havent replaced the likes of Aribo, Kamera, Morelos, Kent, Helander and even the likes of Arfield. We might not win another title with Tav and / or Goldson but moving them on / dropping them wouldn't magically transform us into title winners. The issue is far more deep routed that just Tav and Goldson.

Funnily enough, Tav and Goldson have said similar previously and got crucified for it........

Lundstram's loss of form is spectacular. Is this a sign he is moving on? We suffered from this last season as well. He has carried us for months and been the main man in midfield and is now a shadow of that player.

I'd keep: Butland Sterling Soutter Diomande (we are buying him int he sumer anyway) Cantwell Sima The rest can gtfo

Excluding out of contract players, as I don't think I would keep any of them. Davies (not contributing, high wage) Matondo (not justifying level of wage) Dessers (scores a lot of goals but god, imagine how many he could have scored) Lammers (while his stock is high) Goldson (high wage that could be better spent) There are others but limiting to 5, which is tough because I could swap in other names that I would want rid of just as much as the above, but are likely not going to free up as much wage for a replacement

I saw the title of the thread and immediately thought, another discussion reference Angela Haggerty.

So we sell Tav and magically we become successfully? All out ills are down to Tav and Tav alone? Tav time is coming to an end, but can think of at least a dozen players who deserved to be chopped before him. (Disclaimer - I have said on numerous occasions that if the Saudi interst in Tav is genuine than we have to sell him z but we can't force him to leave).

I was under the impression that Raskin was to be the ready-made replacement for Davis. that is, a C/DM that knows his job, plays in his position and took the responsibility off the centre-halfs in playing the ball out of defence and up to the front. Jack could do that too, but not at the level of Davis, but he's still IMHO the best DM that we have at the club. The use of Lawrence, Dowell and Lundstram in these roles backfired heavily on us, and while Diomande (how can a thumb injury keep a professional player from playing?) looks good, he's somewhat erratic when it comes to consistency. Having him and Raskin playing in CM might work, if these chaps finally get some playing time together. Aside from tactics, the amount of injuries to important players and some signings never really get going has seriously hampered any improvement this season. Given how tight the league is, this sort of thing can quickly break a "season's neck". Defense-wise, Ridvan, Sterling, and Souttar should stay, but we do need improvements in the summer, including back-ups. Hence, throwing away this season may set us back even more, given that automatic CL group participation is on the menu ... mainly thanks to our runs in Europe (oh the irony).

Maybe the lads That know the stats could tell us how many passes Goldson made and to whom he made his passes

Well, you wouldn't want to hand the Scum the Double, and it is another major trophy for the Ibrox Treasure Vault. As for the last few games: we've had our fair share of injuries, especially to players that you hoped would improve us, even change the course of how we play, namely Danilo, Cantwell, Sima, and now Cortes and Ridvan. What irks me most - and has for about 5 years now - is that we simply fail to learn that the way we play (better players or not) against Scottish opposition is simply not working. While it is totally fine for Europe or against teams that play more open (Dundee did, but we never got our act together), time and again we are a blunt force that hammers at the door, yet fails to get in. The last game against Ross County at Ibrox we chad 40+ shots, 23 on target, but scraped through 2-1. By now, the alarm signals are as loud as a Kinzhal homing in on its target. Yet, we stubbornly soldier on and on and on.

The quote that gets me is "play the youths, they can't be any worse"..... Really? Last season the "youths" (B Team) struggled to beat Bo'ness United and the likes. This season they are not participating in any meaningful domestic games / league structure.

I laughed but it’s probably right.

The stats also show that Lundstram was dribbled past twice. We've discussed this before, haven't we? It looks to be an issue with his reading of the game or positioning.

Yes, this is how they will prove their value. Koppen & his team especially. We need to bring in guys to beat Ross County and Dundee. Not Man City and Juventus.

As good as he is, he is over 30 and knocking back 6 Million + for him would be daft. IMO. I

Maybe so, but a player trading model that actually works would dictate we sell him. Let's not forget that we plucked Jack Butland from the EPL on a free and he had played 10 games in 3 years. Many thought it was a gamble (it was). I'm sure Koppen and Clement will know of similar scenarios where similar keepers are available. Weirdly, I'd sat earlier in the season Butland showed no signs of rustiness, but has done over the last few weeks - is this down to fitness??

If we are serious about recruitment and player trading model then any offers for Butland over £7M should be accepted. Brought in on a free transfer, had a decent season (but like most, been shaky over last few games) and will attract interest from EPL.

I agree, but I'm not a football recruitment expert. That's Koppen's job to figure it out. Yeah, we won't get rid of everyone, but let's start with one, two or three of your list above. Who'd have thought we could have off-loaded Lammers on loan and now potentially be able to sell and recoup our costs. I also think, and I know you disagree, I would keep Cantwell and Ridvan from your list. But Goldson, Lawrence, Dowell, Dessers and Wright should be told they can look for new clubs and that they won't get much game time if they stay. If some Saudi club are interested in Tav, I think the club would bite their hands off. Jack, Roofe, Barisic will be off the wage bill and I expect the loans will end for Sima, Silva and Cortes. So I think we'll see an ever bigger change this summer than we did the last. Whether they are replaced with better depends on whether the board are hungry enough for the CL money or not, knowing each season of failure makes the next a bigger mountain to climb. What I do know is that the team needs a solid defence, that should be the priority. I've said before, last season and the season before, that I felt that we wouldn't win another title with Tav and Goldson and I stand by that.

The overriding narrative tonight is that the “old guard” are at fault. It is simplistic nonsense to pin a collapse like this on Tav, Goldson and Lundstram. Fans love a simple answer to a complex problem and that's what they've gone for. The sudden turn in our form since Hearts has been utterly mind boggling and I have no idea what has caused it, but I do know that the simplistic narrative being peddled tonight is not the answer.

I have no idea why people take pressers at face value. No manager tells the absolute truth when facing the press.

He is saying exactly what I believe is happening. There are players in the squad that have cultivated this frail mentality and we need to cut them loose.

And let us not forget: For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture Psalm 95, KJV

But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God" Marvin Andrews 2005 (also Luke 18:27).

No one said we will magically become successful, come on....

Excluding loan returns: Roofe Lundstram Davies Jack Barisic

That would be a good tactic against them but can we trust our defense to defend and hold out like Walters sides used too? Don't thin so.

Sterling won 1/1. Goldson won 2/2. Souttar won 2/3. Lundstram won 2/2.

Tavernier only tackled twice in the whole game? And he only won one? What sort of fullback is that? You would think he’d been playing behind a dominant midfield and rampant attack. Or maybe Dundee played with no left flank.

That's the issue - people quote Beales transfer outlay, but in reality it was something like circa £6M net. He got rid of players we all.want rid off - Helander, Kent, Kamara, Morelos etc and they were not replaced by better players. We'll get rid of Tav, Barasic, Goldson and Lundstrum and their replacements may not be better. Never ending cycle. We have to give Clement a chance, he's only had 1 window and apart from Silva, the players brought in have looked like they could offer something. However, they were all loans (with 1 obligation to buy and 1 option to buy). So £4.5M of whatever the board promised Clement is going on Diomande.